Good morning Grid Connections listeners
and for those of you who may be listening

for the first time, the Grid Connections
podcast is the show where we unravel the

complexities of electric transportation,
renewable energy, and our electrical power

grid that ties all of them together.

I'm your host Chase and in this exciting
second part of our two episode feature, we

continue our deep dive with the esteemed
Rustam Coacher.

This is a great episode, but also check
out part one if you haven't already.

Rustam was behind Daimler's electric
Cascadia trucking program.

Now a retired trucking executive, he
returns to shed light on the intricacies

of total cost of ownership, or TCO for
those in the know, the disruptive entrance

of the Tesla semi, the revolutionary
vehicle to great technology that electric

trucking unlocks, and much more.

Building on the momentum of our last
episode, we further explore the

transformative changes sweeping through
the trucking industry guided by Rustam's

unparalleled expertise and firsthand
experiences.

This discussion is packed with insights on
navigating the challenges and seizing the

opportunities of electrification in the
transport sector.

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Now let's plug back in with Rustam Kocher
for the second part of our conversation.

With that, enjoy.

So from an operational standpoint, again,
the technology is there.

Trucks are capable of doing probably 80 %
of the routes.

And right now long haul is what we would
call a corner case.

It's, if you have a graph that shows what
the vehicle is capable of doing, it kind

of goes like this and it leaves things in
the corner.

Well, that corner case keeps getting
smaller and smaller as charging speed goes

up, battery density is improved, and the
overall capability of the trucks.

And right now, all of the major truck
OEMs, Freightliner, Packard, Navistar,

Volvo, are on generation one or generation
two of their trucks.

None of them have started from the wheels
up to design a truck simply to be

electric.

They're all using components of
drivetrain, of chassis, of frame that are

pulled over from diesel days.

The only one that's actually designed it
from the ground up to be electric is

Tesla.

And so when the major OEMs that have this
tremendous depth of knowledge of the

industry actually get those, what I'll
call Gen 5 vehicles done into the market,

they're going to be tremendously capable
and those corner cases are going to

continue to shrink.

And so when you say Gen five, does that
mean, and I understand this is a difficult

question.

Is that five years away?

Is that 10 years away?

Is that three to five years away?

You think?

Yeah.

cobbled together all these parts and you
stuck a, you pulled out the old diesel

engine and you stuck in the battery and
the motor and hey, it works.

That's Gen one.

Gen two is, well, how do we make this like
a smooth operating experience for the

customers and maybe get it to a couple.

Gen three is series production, which is
where, like I said, Freightliner, both of

those guys are on.

Gen four is the iteration of that.

You make it better.

You put more components that are designed
for that.

use case into the vehicle so instead of
some still cobbled together things maybe

you've consolidated four or five
components into one things like that and

then Gen 5 is okay we've started with a
clean slate of sheet of paper we're going

to design it from the ground up to be
electric if we wanted it to be electric

from day one what should it you know how
should it look how should it operate how

should the frame rails be you know

Because right now, every frame rail in the
world on a diesel truck has what's called

a splay.

It goes straight and then it has a little
bit an opening to drop the engine into.

You don't need that in a battery electric
truck.

You even need frame rails in a battery
electric truck.

I mean, you just you build a thing on
batteries like Tesla's doing.

I don't know.

So that needs to be investigated.

And like I said, those guys have this huge
depth of understanding of how to put

together commercial vehicles that will
stand the test of time and be tremendously

capable and they'll get it done.

Do you think, so it's kind of interesting,
like the Tesla semi -program from what we

know kind of looking on the outside, they
had a person who had actually worked at

Dialog, kind of originally at the first
part, kind of launched the program and it

obviously took a long while for it to get
going and now it's kind of going.

It's still ramping up, honestly.

But do you think that they have kind of...

When you talk about that example
specifically that it takes these other

people to kind of get to a Gen four, Gen
five to do a clean sheet.

Do you think that that does give us a
pretty significant large advantage in

that?

Or do you think it's still by the time it
takes them to ramp up?

Can you share a little bit more of why you
think that?

because they've started with Gen 5.

And I've never worked with sharper, more
intelligent people in my life than the

folks that I worked with at Tesla.

These guys, they work really, really hard.

They're some of the smartest people, like
I said, that I've ever met.

And when they encounter problems...

to them it's a challenge and they just go,
oh boy, let's solve this.

And so you get this thing that in other
OEMs it would be like, oh, who screwed

that up?

Oh, you designed that bolt and flange
feature.

Well, let's hang this on you and then just
figure out a way and how do we manage the

cost of fixing that problem?

Tesla's like, oh, we've got a solution for
that.

Let's go.

And then they're onto the next.

And it's a complete different mindset with
these guys.

So.

Like I said, the major OEMs have this
tremendous depth and knowledge of this

industry.

And I have faith that they'll get a lot of
things right.

The speed at which they'll get them right,
I don't know.

It's going to be a challenge.

Yeah.

And it is kind of been interesting, um,
given that this conversation we're having

right now, and you compare it to once
again, the light duty realm where, uh,

Tesla was kind of scaling up and I don't
want to make this all rah rah rah about

Tesla.

Obviously there's BYD and other kind of
companies approaching, uh, essentially,

and I know they're startups, but they're
kind of approaching it more from that

mindset.

But when Tesla was scaling up, you had the
GMs, the Fords of the world and like, Oh,

That's cute and all.

If this becomes a real thing or we
actually need to do electric vehicles,

we've been making cars for a hundred
years.

We'll figure it out.

And to some extent Ford's been doing it,
but like I just the last conversation we

had on the podcast, we had someone talking
about the book they had written on GM and

the old team platform and that exact
experience where it's like, no, this is a

very different beast altogether.

There's car there, both electric vehicles
and combustion vehicles have wheels.

Uh, but you start getting to some of the
other things and exactly like you're

telling about, uh, with the frame rails
and these sorts of things.

It's, it's also a very different beast and
you kind of have to, um,

designed a battery pack that did not take
into consideration the fact that lithium

batteries expand and contract.

And you know what happens with the Coke
can if you put it in the freezer, it

eventually explodes, right?

It was a major OYM then.

Company law room.

couple of semis having some issues in the
news recently.

But no, I understand.

but it was just an idea.

But yeah, yes, there's a tremendous amount
of learning that needs to be done in this

industry.

Yep.

So I I promised it might ask a few more of
these questions just So we kind of talked

about around weight and I I think we're
coming agreement and I think he's even

sees it where it's like Yeah, anything
unless it's long haul, but even then it's

it's getting there.

The question more is kind of when it's
gonna happen Yeah So we kind of address

the weight now

What would be really, I think, most
interesting is, obviously battery life and

range play into this, but on a larger
comparison, the difference in maintenance

versus a combustion truck and electric
truck.

Because, yeah, first 150 ,000, 200 ,000
miles, yeah, there's kind of some pros and

cons.

Obviously, you got oil change and stuff.

But then you start getting further in the
lifetime, and it is wild how much

maintenance and how big of things that a
diesel engine requires.

you go from literally hundreds of moving
parts, yeah, there's literally hundreds if

not thousands of moving parts on a modern
engine.

And you go from that to double digits with
the battery electric.

The best view we have on that is the New
York City fleet that has undergone a

massive transformation to electrification
over the last five years.

And they're seeing huge drops in
maintenance costs.

And that is due to electrification.

So.

Yes, sometimes the battery pack does have
to be replaced.

It's quite rare.

Yes, sometimes a fuse gets blown.

Sometimes you get a short somewhere.

But on the whole, we know that battery
electric vehicles require tremendously

less maintenance than ICEs do.

And it's just the number of moving parts
is a big number with ICE and it's a small

number with battery electric.

And you don't get torque.

So if you've ever watched a, sorry, if
you've ever watched an ICE large class

eight diesel truck accelerate off the
line, off a stoplight or something, the

entire chassis twists because of the
rotational mass in an internal combustion

engine.

And there's all this torsion and twisting
and vibration that goes on in this hugely

powerful truck.

And none of it happens with a battery
electric.

So.

All of these OEMs built these trucks to
last 1 .2 million miles with all these

rotational and torsional forces.

If you don't have those, how long is that
truck chassis going to last?

4 million miles?

We don't know.

Well, I think there's two things to like
even looking at batteries.

Um, let's say you have to replace them and
stuff.

I think the, the infrastructure and
support, uh, supply chain for this is

already growing and kind of already there,
but it's only going to take off even more

where.

Like you have to replace a diesel engine.

I want to say almost every 500 ,000 miles
or I mean, it can be even shorter, but I

think that's like the base warranties.

Like, yeah, yeah, that too.

And so.

While rare, let's say everything does go
wrong with the batteries.

The fact is you can still recycle them and
the infrastructure and the supply chain

and like you look at LFP batteries too,
it's just like, it's really becoming

simpler and simpler.

And it's really becoming more of a thing
of just getting the actual manufacturing

base built here more versus all of the
supply chain, all of the parts that you

need for going into a diesel engine, the
spark plugs, all these funds, fun little

things that really kind of.

go away pretty quickly.

And even when you talk, you just mentioned
fuses.

And that was kind of funny to me because
like you look at Tesla who does kind of

take the clean sheet approach and you get
to like a gen five vehicle, you might, I

don't know if they do this in the semi,
but I'd be surprised if they don't use E

fuses or other things that actually kind
of get rid of that problem altogether,

like they do in their regular cars.

And if they're not, I'm sure they want to
go there.

Um, so no, that, that, that's really
interesting.

And I, I,

on that point, so all those things are in
place already for the infrastructure and

the maintenance for existing ICEs.

So the warehouse of parts and the
maintenance schedules and all those things

exist.

That's missing.

One crucial piece of that is missing for
battery electric trucks and that's the

charging infrastructure.

And that's why that charging
infrastructure is so important to get

built out so that you can travel.

east -west, north -south along the rungs
of the ladder to get from LA to Houston,

from Houston to New York, from New York to
Chicago, from Chicago to Seattle.

You can do all those runs.

That infrastructure has to be in place.

In 2019 and 2018, the Tesla, sorry, the
Tesla Supercharger network was just being

built out.

And there was a group of nerds like me,

Right.

watching a father and daughter who was
gonna do the first cross country trip

using only Tesla superchargers and they
were driving from New York to San

Francisco.

And there was one stretch across Arizona
that had not had the supercharger open

yet.

And they left New York without that
supercharger site open.

on the anticipation that it would be open
in time for them to use it so they could

reach San Francisco.

And there was about a thousand of us who
were watching online as this was

unfolding.

I'm like, are they going to make it in
time?

And Tesla actually opened it specifically
for them to hit that site in charge so

they could make it to San Francisco.

And it was exciting.

We're like, yay, they made it.

It was the first cross -country drive
using the supercharger.

And that needs to happen for trucks.

You need to be able to do those things.

You have to be able to go from point A to
point B.

And that's why we did the work we did on
the West Coast Client Transit Quarter.

That's why it needs to happen up and down
the I -95 quarter on the East Coast.

And then it needs to happen on 84.

And those are the crossmember, the 10, all
those other crossmembers, the rungs and

the ladder.

So you have to have the up and downs and
you have to have the crossmembers.

Well, it's kind of interesting because
that goes to what I was kind of mentioning

earlier.

So I just feel like there's a lot.

It's in some ways a lot clearer what needs
to be done and where it's going for

electric trucks, because so much of it has
been done already in light duty.

But it kind of goes back to like it's like
five to seven years behind where it was in

the fact that exactly that like there just
isn't the infrastructure right now to do

outside of like having a small fleet in a
city or kind of going between cities,

which.

Once again, that's still a huge market and
that's a great starting point, but to

really get all of it done.

And I think that's what's so kind of great
to hear is it's really not, we need to

solve a nuclear fusion or something to
make this happen.

It's just, we need to really more or less
built the things.

And as we get more of that data and
understanding, we'll be able to kind of

make everything else better and the
technology improves.

But in the five years or so it'll take to
do that anyway, we'll be looking at a much

different, uh,

many different platforms from these
different auto manufacturers for their

electric semi.

So I, it's one of those things that I'm
pretty optimistic about and I think it's a

pretty big hurdle, but I actually have the
feeling that it's probably going to happen

a lot faster whether it's a flying J or
whether it's a, like you're talking about

the company you've been kind of like
someone's.

Okay.

Okay.

So, but exactly that it's like, somebody
is going to kind of take the first step.

Someone is going to have to be kind of,
and I know Tesla is obviously thinking

about it and trying to do their own, um,
thing to support their semis.

And so it's eventually going to happen.

LA to Houston as well and how we're going
to build that out.

Oh, gotcha.

So yeah, I mean, it's really, it's
interesting that that is the biggest issue

right now, but it's also other than just
getting the supply base spun up.

It's really nothing.

You're dealing with higher amperages,
you're dealing with higher voltages, but

thanks to MCS, you're kind of building out
what that needs to be.

You have that spec sheet and now you just
need to go get the manufacturers to

actually support it and build it.

One of the other questions.

MCS.

So ABB and Trayton, the Volkswagen group
that makes trucks in Europe, formed a

partnership specifically to work on MCS
and the rollout with commercial trucks in

Europe.

So it's happening.

Yeah.

No, that's great.

Um, one of the other questions my friend
had, and it's kind of tangential to this

is maintenance.

So he doesn't work for Volvo, but he works
for a dealership that sells Volvo, uh,

Volvo semi trucks.

And, uh, there's obviously kind of like
you have with regular dealerships and the

actual manufacturer kind of sometimes
disgruntled and not, uh, maybe just scrone

is not the right word, but there's the
exactly there.

There can be tension.

Yes, yes.

And one of those is actually around
maintenance and even some of the newer

diesels, there's certain things that have
to be done by a certain person or that

kind of stuff.

And he was kind of curious as we go to
electric trucks, what kind of discussions,

if you're aware of any, have there been
around that or what kind of the

maintenance required and who can do it or
what that requires for maybe even a shop

to be.

And maybe this is kind of too early to
even know what that looks like.

you, and...

certified to really work on these electric
semis.

That's 100 % a great question and that's
something that the OEMs would never put a

truck in the hands of customers without
that plan already in place.

So there's been a tremendous amount of
certification and training and planning

for that exact topic in that if you're
gonna be a maintenance bay and you're

gonna work on electric trucks, you have to
have the qualified people to be able to

even open and touch the truck.

You can't have a high voltage system.

and have someone that's not qualified to
work on high voltage systems working on

it.

You can't even change the tires on an
electric truck unless you've had the high

voltage training so that you know what to
touch and what not to touch.

And that's very...

defined from all the OEMs and all the
dealerships that work on the vehicles.

And that's for the safety of the
maintenance personnel and the ability of

the dealerships to work on the trucks.

And I guess for anyone listening, that
does sound kind of intimidating to even

change the tires that requires that.

But that's also true with diesel engines
and the current platforms they have that

there are very specific, uh, and much more
detailed than you would think for even

what is usually a simple thing for a lot
of light duty vehicles, but that's cause

they also expect.

There's a chance that Joe Schmoe could do
his own oil change or something.

So it has to be a little bit, uh, more
proofed in other ways than, uh, something

like a semi is, but.

have a saying in the industry.

We have a saying in the industry.

You make things idiot proof and they keep
making better idiots.

That is pretty awesome actually.

That I'm afraid that that is true and I'm
curious to see what electrification and

that proves to be.

Because I feel like there's gonna be some
new ones coming out of that for sure.

But.

sure it will happen.

Yeah, exactly.

Um, so one of the things we've talked a
lot about long haul and we've kind of

alluded to Evie fleets, but I think it
might be just good to just talk about it.

So right now, obviously the easiest thing
for like, let's say, I don't know, Safeway

for some reason, bottom of my head, but
any, any sort of large company that has a

lot of semis and has one kind of warehouse
or main area that's doing maybe only a

couple hundred or even less miles a day.

And they all go back to at the end of the
night.

Um, it,

there's a pretty good and quick use case
to make that electrified.

What do those discussions look like and
what is sometimes like the hardware or

challenges to change a facility that's
traditionally been having a combustion

engine vehicles go to a fully electric
one.

Well, no fleet location currently today
can do 100 % flip.

It's simply not in the cards.

So any fleet location right now today is
gonna have a hybrid fleet.

It's gonna have some electric and some
diesel.

And to start with, there's probably gonna
be a small number of electric and a large

number of diesel.

And then over time, that number will start
to grow from the electric side.

And then hopefully at some point it turns
into a 100 % electrification fleet.

But let's use your Safeway.

sorry, is that because of, yeah, but I
mean, is that because of, um, just in

like, especially if you're looking at like
a Southern California, is that due to like

actual utility, uh, power needs for that
location?

Or is that just because there just aren't
enough, uh, electric semis being built at

the moment or kind of a mixture of all the
above?

Okay.

vehicles.

That's the two issues.

And the availability of how much charging
you can put in at a specific time.

You don't want your facility to be down
for too long, right?

A day or two, maybe you could hobble by,
but more than that, you can't.

So you have to eat the elephant in bites,
right?

So it's any fleet location like that, you
have to take a few bites at it.

So.

You have a facility, you need to do the
analysis on a couple of things.

One is, who's your local utility?

Have a conversation with them.

Where do I sit on your grid?

How much available headroom is there on
your grid?

In other words, what can you connect me to
that you have in surplus nearby?

And what are you gonna need to build out?

Now, what most people don't know is that a
public utility is a regulated industry.

So they cannot legally have a bunch of
extra power at any point in their grid

because they're only allowed to build what
customers need and demand.

So there's only so much headroom any
specific location can have access to

because legally utilities can't just go
build a bunch of extra capacity.

So you go talk to utility and they say,
yeah, I got two and a half, three maybe

that I could give you, but you're asking
for 10.

That's going to take me five years.

You say, okay, great.

Let's get the 2 .5 going.

That'll take six months to 12 months,
maybe 14 to get everything connected to my

site and get the chargers in.

Let's get that started.

And then let's start the process for the
10 and we'll peg that for the five years.

Then you go and talk to your OEMs and say,
okay, I've talked to utility, because

that's the first person you got to talk
to.

The power's got to come from somewhere.

The power should be at the site for 2 .5
megawatts worth in 14 months.

Let's get the trucks ordered and set to
deliver then.

And then the next step is I'm going to go
talk to either a consulting company or a

company like Black and Veatch or Burns and
Mack.

and design what needs to go into my
facility so that my fleet can be

electrified.

And that's the design of the site, that's
the design of the chargers, the design of

the power dispensation, onsite generation
if needs to be, battery storage if it

needs to be, some combination thereof.

And you work that in.

The first thing you do when you're doing
that as a consultant is you look at the

data from where the trucks travel.

So if you have a Safeway distribution
site, they've got stores that are nearby,

and they've also got stores that are a
little bit farther away, and they've got

stores that are really far away.

So you take that data and say, okay, right
now with the trucks that can do what they

can do, we can get the close ones and the
medium ones, we can't do the far ones.

That means that's 50 % of the fleet.

Okay, so we can convert 50 % of the fleet
right now.

They have access to 2 .5 megawatts.

What number of trucks is that?

And you start to say, okay, let's pick
these off and off we go.

And then so it takes much longer than
anybody thinks.

It takes about 18 months to two years to
get fully spun up on a site and get that

transfer started.

And then you've got to wait for the power
and then you've got to spin up the next

one.

And what's interesting is that it's much
cheaper to prep a site in one go.

So we say, we talk to customers and so we
touch the ground once so that you're

prepared for the next steps of your fleet
conversion.

So.

If you can, when you're doing the first
conversion, prepare for step two, steps

three, maybe even step four, lay the
conduit, prepare the switch here, prepare

the pads, all the other things, so that
when you want to do your next round of

trucks and you get the next round of power
from the utility, all you're doing is

pulling a few cables, dropping a few
chargers, and you're ready to go.

It's much, much cheaper than re -digging,
relaying cable, reinstalling chargers.

reinstalling conductors, all those things
over and over again.

No, that kind of brings up another
question.

Something you said earlier when we were
talking about Electric Island and you

said, yeah, and we have the small 50
kilowatt ones for overnight, which

immediately, because my daily is like a
model, I was like, sure, that's still a

lot.

And I was like, well, we're talking about
semis here.

What is kind of like the average, what is
like the level two equivalent for a semi?

So for EV, like a light duty EV like.

Anywhere from 6 to 11 kilowatts is plenty
for overnight charging.

I'm kind of curious and there's probably a
few similar variables, but like what is

good practice for like if you have a
school bus fleet or something that

probably just charges overnight anyway,
like what is there kind of like a set

level to band for these kinds of
commercial vehicles?

Well, you asked three questions, so let's
go back.

So level two charging is typically AC
charging.

Excuse me.

Most of these trucks are gonna charge DC.

They're not gonna carry around inverters
on board.

So they're gonna need DC chargers.

Kind of your overnight charge or your
long, slow charge is gonna be 50 to 75 kW,

maybe a 40, depending on how long that
quiet period is.

But what you do want is flexibility.

So you may want a charger that could do as
low as 40 or 50, but could also be ramped

up and supply 450, 800, you know, and have
these power modules that can be put into

effect.

And I call it as a layman, power sloshing.

So if you have a pan of water,

and you kind of tilt the pan from one side
to the other, the water will slosh from

one side to the other.

So if you have a number of chargers and
you have some trucks that need more power

than others, you want to be able to move
that power around and supply some trucks

with more power, some with less based on
what the battery needs and the fleet needs

are.

And so maybe you've got a truck that needs
to go out quick.

And so you're going to give him a lot of
power.

You're going to drop everybody else down.

Maybe you've got a long overnight or maybe
a long midday in California where you have

a lot of solar overproduction and the
power is really cheap.

You want to ramp everybody up to maybe 80
% speed and just give them a lot of power

and soak up a lot of cheap power from the
grid.

So you want that capability to flex and
flow with your charging infrastructure and

what those building blocks are determine
how small of a chunk you can go down to.

So whether it's 40, 50, 70, everybody's
kind of chosen a different chunk of those

Legos and how that small, that small
building block is so that you can get up

fast and you can also get down to a small
overnight dispensation.

And then you talked about school buses,
which is another question entirely.

Those things are fantastic for students
because they're lower emission for a very

vulnerable population.

And they're also fantastic for...

the utility because they store power and
use power at very opportune times.

If you have a fleet of school buses and
it's taking the kids to school and come

back to their depot and they're plugged
in, then they can soak up solar power in

the peak of the day when there's a lot of
overproduction from solar.

And that's happening more and more in
Southern California, but in a lot of

places in the U .S.

you have all these solar systems going in
and you have overproduction between like

10 and 2.

midday and that's when school buses are
parked so they can soak up a lot of power

they can go take the students home from
school after school is done they come back

and plug in they still have a lot of power
left in their batteries and they can be

used to send power back into the grid when
the utilities really need it when

everybody's gone home and you see this
peak happen in demand and then later on at

night when nobody's moving anything
because the school buses are parked and

they can slowly charge it overnight
baseline power again and be ready to roll

in.

school buses are really interesting use
case where something called V to G or

vehicle to grid or V to X vehicle to
anything goes into effect.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So school buses are fantastic use case for
that.

Yeah.

Uh, and I just kind of said school buses,
just an example of a commercial thing, but

that does seem to be the most common and
even the clearest business case really for

the vehicle to grid working with the
utility.

And there's a lot of pilots of that going
on right now with MCS.

I'm assuming that does have vehicle to
grid as a pretty strong component of the

protocols, right?

That's yeah, I thought I'd seen something
like that.

What are we going to say there?

vehicle to X was one of the baseline
requirements that I had to be able to do.

I don't know that we'll see MCS on school
bus though, because I think from a power

need standpoint, I think what NACS and
what CCST can provide to a school bus is

more than sufficient.

It's the ability to have that
communication standard defined.

so that the vehicle and the grid can talk
and send power the right direction when

it's required.

Interesting.

Uh, so with that, when you look at, we've,
we talked about school buses.

Are there anything that's kind of the
first step for a vehicle to grade a lot of

these pilots or applications?

Are there any other commercial Vita G?

I guess opportunities that kind of stand
out to you that maybe aren't being

discussed enough, or you think are kind of
the next big easy wins after the school

bus example.

So a commercial truck isn't making money
if it's sitting idle.

So that's why charging speed can be
important for some fleets.

Some fleets simply sit idle at times when
people aren't working.

Whether or not that will change with the
rollout of silent, powerful, quiet fleets

is another thing entirely.

If you can make deliveries at night
because you have a quiet fleet, do you run

at night?

Who knows?

Those things will change.

If vehicles can go inside of buildings
because they don't have any emissions,

does that change things?

Who knows?

We don't know the answers to those things.

I think one of the things that hasn't been
fully explored with vehicle to grid or

vehicle to X is how electric vehicles help
communities during times of catastrophe.

So we all know that the Pacific Northwest
is waiting for a big rip, right?

It's supposed to be an 8 .8 coming.

and you have all these public shelters
that are set aside so we're all supposed

to be able to go to the local middle
school, high school, grade school,

whatever, and have shelter.

Will the power be on?

Probably not.

If the school district has a bunch of
electric school buses, can they take those

and provide power to a site with that V to
X so that everyone inside has lights and

warmth when they need it?

Yes.

Could you do that as well with city
vehicles if they have that V to X

capability?

Yes.

If I'm a fleet that runs class eight
commercial trucks, is that a viable

opportunity for me to contribute back to
my community if my trucks can do that?

Possibly.

Is it a way to make money if the city
wants to contract me to do that?

Possibly.

Some of those things I don't think I've
been fully explored.

Interesting.

Yeah.

I mean, especially when you talk about
that example and kind of like cities, not

only do they have school buses, there's
dump trucks and a lot of these other kind

of municipal and city commercial vehicles
that we're also seeing electrified.

So that is actually a really good and
interesting use case for them with some of

the things we're seeing too around the
discussion that we've been having today

around electrification.

One other area I kind of wanted to ask you
about was around

hybrids in or like plug -in hybrids even
because it was just fascinating what you

even just said earlier about I didn't
think about this that they won't have AC

charging that's I mean then they don't
need an inverter and it saves parts it

makes sense because the demand they need
anyway it doesn't really Yeah, and so

There's been obviously a lot in the light
duty conversations lately about

kind of slowing down EV adoption and
looking at hybrids and plugging hybrids,

especially it's kind of the stop gap.

And obviously a lot of pros and I think
probably more cons of that actually being

realistic or plausible.

But there's now been conversations of that
in trucking as well.

And kind of these kind of interesting, I
don't think they'd work in Europe because

of some of the requirements they have
there, but essentially you've probably

seen it where a trailer plugs into a kind
of in between the actual tractor semi and

then the trailer.

And it's kind of like a hybrid slash
battery thing.

I'm just, I think given our conversation,
I think I know where you probably land on

this, but I'm just kind of curious if
you've seen any exposure or anything in

that realm that's interesting to you or is
a kind of valid stopgap to full

electrification.

I'll quote Martin Daum on this, who's the
CEO of Daimler Truck Global.

His quote on hybrids was, the worst of
both worlds.

And I agree with him on that.

Because if you have a plug -in hybrid
truck, or even a plug -in hybrid light

vehicle, you're carrying two drivetrains
that have been stuffed into the same

chassis that would normally fit one.

Neither one is optimized.

and you carry the weight and maintenance
penalty of them being overused when they

are being put into use.

So you have an undersized battery and
undersized ICE that really aren't

optimized to work with each other.

And especially with light duty.

there's no control over whether or not
they get actually plugged in or not.

And there was a huge push towards plug -in
hybrids being adopted as commercial

vehicle, fleet vehicles.

It's really common in Europe as an
employee to be given a free lease of a

corporate vehicle.

And so a lot of companies went with plug
-in hybrids five to six years ago because

that was what was available.

And most of those got returned with the
charge cord still in the original plastic

bag never opened.

And so you have a plug -in hybrid vehicle
that was built to balance batteries in the

ICE that never had the battery charged.

And so you had an overworked ICE for the
entirety of that vehicle being put on the

road.

That's not a solution.

That's a fallacy.

the right for sure.

And I think that's, I completely agree
with it there.

And that's something that we've discussed
a lot is that exact example of the, a lot

of the perks and incentives that were
given for people to have these plug -in

hybrids, but then coincidentally, since
it's a company vehicle, they also have a

gas card.

And so it's like, well, if you're just wet
and so it's like, as they say the.

path to hell is paid with good intentions.

It just seems kind of like the epitome of
that.

And especially in the semi world with what
you were talking about earlier with all

that rotational force, it's obviously true
for a light duty hybrid, but much more so,

it's so visible when you see a semi
startup and it's just one more thing

that's shaking and moving all these
different parts.

Right.

And I think that is really interesting.

Kind of once again, going back to.

Exactly what you're saying with not
needing an inverter.

I mean, you're just adding more parts more
subsystems You're probably going to need

not just you're going to need not only a
low voltage in the high voltage But then

you're going to need probably a medium
voltage and it's it's just been really

interesting with electrification This is a
very different thing.

But like even Porsche recently has
essentially moved to With I think was the

Panamera they had like essentially like
three different voltage systems in the car

Some of it was due to the technology being
new and not having the right suppliers.

I

But then so they had like a do this and
it's a very cool and very in a lot of ways

impractical much like much Porsche stuff
is but really cool suspension system

that's hydraulic but also has a electric
component.

So it was like it had a I think of 12 volt
48 volt 400 volt and then maybe even if

you were in the Tycon and 800 volt system
which is really impressive really cool

engineer but it's just so many extra
things and more importantly so much extra

weight.

Yeah.

Exactly, which I mean, if you have a
Porsche dealership, that's that's the you

want to be selling like crazy.

I'm sure but yeah, for most people, it's
not practical.

And so right, exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

So there was a couple of hybrid truck
companies out there.

Hylion was one.

I can't remember the other couple, but
they've all gone under.

And Daimler was making some hybrid trucks
eight years ago.

And there was just no customer demand
because they cost more.

And then the maintenance was cost more.

And so your cost per mile.

So we haven't gotten into this, but
everything in commercial trucks comes down

to TCO, total cost of ownership.

So everything can be factored down to what
does it cost me to roll this truck per

mile?

How many cents per mile does it cost me?

That is flat out the only reason you
purchase a vehicle.

And so once that TCO becomes competitive,
or even in some cases where we've seen it

be better with electric vehicles, then
it's a spread seat decision.

You don't buy a Freightliner because...

you'd buy a red Porsche.

You buy a red Porsche because you turn 50
and you're feeling you got midlife crisis,

right?

You buy a Freightliner because it has
lower TCO than the other guys.

Or you buy a battery electric because it
has lower TCO than the other guys.

And that's what it's going to come down
to.

It's going to come down to a spreadsheet
decision.

And we're rapidly approaching from the
bottom up.

So delivery vans are already TCO positive.

If somebody is purchasing gasoline or
diesel deliver gans, they're not doing

their analysis correctly because it's
already TCO positive to go battery

electric.

And we're slowly then creeping up to class
four, class five, class six, class seven.

And many of those cases, depending on your
load and your range, are already TCO

positive to go battery electric.

And class eight is next.

Yeah, actually it's funny.

We probably should have started with TCO
since it is so important, especially in

the long haul and fleet space.

And we've kind of been dancing around it,
but I'm actually glad you brought that up.

I feel so I didn't mention it sooner or
call it out more, but yeah, you're totally

right.

I think that's one of the big things,
especially when you're looking at fleets

and you're right.

That's honestly like bright drop and all
these other kind of domestic OEMs have

been making a large investment in the
commercial space because of the TCO and

It's a lot harder maybe for the light duty
vehicles to sell individually to

customers.

But when you look at the total cost of
ownership, whether it's through the oil

changes and all sorts of other maintenance
that come along with that, the message for

electrification, even though there's
actually a decent upfront investment to

add AC charging, if it's like a delivery
vans and all these things, but once again,

over the total cost of it.

And there's obviously incentives for it
too, but it pretty quickly pays for

itself.

And it just has so many more.

moving parts literally, but also from like
even a business standpoint of what you

need to be concerned about and the like
how large the actual maintenance and uh,

kind of upkeep of these vehicles that are
what have you seen anything?

Yeah.

No, go for it.

quickly, many large municipalities in
Europe and it's starting to happen in the

US as well are banning internal combustion
engines in their city cores.

And so in many cases, it's a binary
decision.

Am I going to operate within these city
cores?

And if so, if I'm going to do that, then I
need a zero combustion vehicle.

So.

These companies making deliveries, whether
they're vans, class six, class seven,

class eight, in London or Munich or Berlin
or Milan, if you're going to make

deliveries, it has to be zero emission.

So as companies make decisions,
spreadsheet decisions, I want to make

deliveries to my customers in this area.

I kind of have to have a zero emission.

And I think obviously it plays a role, but
obviously that can get a little bit more

contentious depending on who you're
talking around and the political leanings

of stuff.

But you're totally right.

I, that is a big part of those decisions.

But even then, um, that I think is kind of
maybe forcing or accelerating it, but with

everything else we're seeing, it is just
cheaper, uh, on a purely financial and

just a logistical standpoint to do it
anyway.

That just might be like, instead of doing
it,

In two years and you're like, okay, I'll
just do it this year or something to make

those upgrades, to meet those, those
needs, which I don't think is a bad thing

either with what you're kind of talking
about around the TCO.

What are some of the things in your
experience?

Let's say you are talking to someone that
just like, hell no, I'm not, you can rip

my diesel engine out of my cold dead hands
kind of a situation.

Let's say they're not being as practical
or financially observant, maybe.

Are there any sort of things that you have
shared with them around kind of the

conversation of TCO?

Maybe not even financially, but just less
maintenance or something that, or what are

these conversations that you have with
people that maybe can be that kind of

point that turns them around and kind of
opens them up to like, okay, this is

actually, let's throw out all the renew,
like there's all the environmental

benefits, but let's forget about that for
a second.

That actually makes sense.

Now I'm interested.

What in your experience have kind of been
those things?

Two things, one from a financial
standpoint, if you're rolling zero

emissions, typically you can charge more
to the customer per mile because they're

willing to pay for it.

So you have companies like Target, Pepsi,
Budweiser, that are willing to pay more

for a cleaner supply chain.

So they'll pay you more per mile for that
zero emission transportation you've

provided.

And two, one of the biggest headaches in
the transportation fleet industry is

driver retention.

And...

The zero -mission trucks are easy to
drive, they are pleasant to drive, and

they attract non -traditional drivers
because they are easy and pleasant to

drive.

And so fleets who would normally be
struggling to find drivers if they have

zero -mission trucks find that they're
attracting a larger number of capable

drivers from a larger area.

of non -traditional drivers and so they're
able to attract and keep drivers, which

lowers their costs.

That's it's interesting you mentioned that
because I didn't think about that.

But in a couple of the clips I've seen
about the Tesla semi and a couple of

electric vehicles, they have kind of it.

That's when they asked the drivers first.

That's been a very common thing that one,
it's just a much more pleasant vehicle to

drive and just even be in.

There's just a lot more kind of newer
safety and I guess creature comforts along

with in some of the interviews I've just
seen.

And Adoli, they mentioned, yeah, this.

I hadn't been a driver before I've gotten
into this.

So that is really interesting because
you're right.

I've talking with my friend that is a
pretty common issue is finding drivers and

having kind of retaining them, especially.

And the one thing that we never thought
about that came up once we put the trucks

into operation was the drivers were able
to make it back to the depots quicker,

sometimes by 20 or 30 minutes.

And we asked them why.

And they said in stop and go traffic, when
the car ahead of them starts to move in a

diesel truck, you have a delay because
you've got to get everything spun up.

You've got to get through the gears to get
things moving.

And by that time, you've got a gap that
someone from a different lane has pulled

into.

I mean, you've got to stop again.

And this continues over and over again.

With an electric truck, how you do a step
on the accelerator and you never create

that gap that other cars are dodging into.

And so the trucks were being able to go
from Port of LA or Port of Long Beach and

back to the depot, sometimes 20 or 30
minutes quicker because they were able to

keep that gap closed and stay with
traffic.

And the drivers loved it because they
weren't constantly irritated by people

slipping in front of them.

Right.

And they could make more lights instead of
getting stopped.

That's really interesting, but it makes a
lot of sense.

Is there anything else you want to add to
the kind of the TCO or kind of that

conversation of things that you've noticed
can change minds kind of unexpectedly when

you're having that conversation around
electrification of semis?

Just the simple nature of it, talking to
people about technical change, a lot of

them will say that they're interested in
going electric because they've started to

drive an electric car, or their child has
an interest in driving an electric car,

who's due to come take over the business
and they've just finished business school

and they're pushing dads to look at what's
coming next with technology.

things like that.

So, you know, we've seen a lot of kind of
interest from the incoming generations

that really want to do maybe not the right
thing as I would term it, as far as the

environment's concerned, but the right
thing for their business, which is to

follow what technology is leading them.

Gotcha.

That's interesting.

Um, and I guess there is actually one
other area we've kind of talked about, but

haven't discussed directly.

And I'd be curious to get your thoughts
on.

And that's a big discussion around
electrification is data.

And especially when you talk about fleet
management and some of the things that

that can unlock, you kind of talked about
of even leveraging that to figure out how

you choose the right routes first and kind
of make it the most, uh, efficient of

making that investment.

Is there anything else you can kind of
share around that?

kind of impact that you're seeing around
using data more and any kind of more data

first approaches that electrification has
really unlocked for fleet management and

people who operate electric semis.

You don't charge a fleet successfully
without using data management and charge

management.

You have to be smart about it.

One of the first fleets to Evergo Electric
was a Foothill Ranch bus service in Los

Angeles.

And they did not factor in demand charges
to their total cost of fueling the buses

with electricity.

And they got hit with some massive bills.

because they hadn't thought about that
when they had modeled going to electric

truck buses for their service.

Granted, they were very far on the leading
edge of this.

So was the utility that provided them.

And there was a lot of learnings that
everybody came in contact with with that

rollout.

But a smart charge service avoids high
demand charges.

It avoids high cost per kilowatt charges.

It maximizes.

the capability and capacity of your
current charge system, how much power

needs to be dispensed to the trucks, the
lowest cost potential per kilowatt hour,

potentially the greenest kilowatt hour you
can provide to your fleet based on when

wind and solar power is available.

All those things have to be combined into
a very smart system that can dispense

power.

in the most efficient way possible.

So yes, data has a huge role to play in
deciding which of those fleet vehicles go

electric first, how that power is then
dispensing the vehicles in the most

efficient and cost effective way.

And it's really important to work with a
partner or become intelligent enough with

that sort of data that you can make those
decisions yourself.

Most of the large fleets I know are...

depending on the apartment because it's a
big nut to crack.

For sure.

And I know bright drop, which is Jim's
kind of commercial and even especially

Ford through their, uh, try and remember
what essentially their, uh, their

commercial program as well.

They're saying that's where they're making
so much money too is around essentially

the data service that they are selling in
addition to these electric transit

vehicles and stuff like that.

And so it is kind of an interesting, uh,
full package solution that these and

software, uh, integration that is.

I don't know if it's, I think some of it's
indirectly, but a lot of it is just

complimentary services being sold by going
through electrification.

And that's unlocking a lot more potential
financially and even kind of in that

example, time savings and where to make
those investments to have the largest

impact first.

pays for itself.

I mean, simply reducing your charging
demand when the utility needs more power

and other places on the grid can not only
save you money, but make you money.

And so if you have a system that's able to
respond to those demand signals from the

utility, your fleet can literally make
money by lowering your charging speed.

But you have to have a system that knows
what the signal is, when it needs to go

into effect.

whether or not it's gonna affect your
fleet charging and customer needs, and if

it can be put into effect and then
actually effectuate it.

So, all those things have to be done
successfully for you to be able to take

advantage of that, something like that.

And that does seem to kind of go into the
fact.

Oh, I think my camera just died.

But I think it's fine.

Let me just try and see if I can switch
this word.

I realize we've kind of gone over time as
it is.

So I'm going to try and make this quick,
but it's interesting going through with

all these different kind of data
solutions, how it also could kind of help

with a location that's trying to charge.

And figure out the balancing and working
with the utility of leveraging the

advantage of going to like, uh, using or
installing a large battery backup system

on that location to help with leveling out
and minimizing demand charges, but then

also using to sell it back at night as
well.

Yep, no micro grid and battery electric
storage, I think are gonna be kind of the

two Swiss army knife solutions, especially
for commercial fleets that are gonna be

really, really useful going forward,
avoiding those demand charges.

So a demand charge, most people don't know
because it's really only applied to

commercial fleets or commercial businesses
is if you have...

you have a line essentially that if you
cross, your electricity charge goes up

substantially.

So it behooves you to always stay below
that demand value as best you can.

And so if you have a big demand that
suddenly come on because you've got four

trucks that rolled up, they all plugged
in, they all need a fast charge, you get a

big spike in demand, you've crossed your
line that you really don't wanna cross

with the utility, where else are gonna get
power from?

hits your on -site battery electric
storage that can kick in, bring your

overall site demand down to that below or
at that demand line, but still be able to

provide the power to the trucks that need
to charge.

And then once that demand.

Mead has tapered off, the battery can
slowly recharge from the grid, staying

under that line and it's available for the
next use.

Or in your case, when the utility needs
it, when they have a big demand going,

they can say, hey, can I have some of that
power, please?

I'll pay you this amount of kilowatt per
kilowatt for it.

And again, you can make money by feeding
it back into the grid.

Yeah, and I think that is probably a good
place to kind of, one final thing.

And I realize we've gone away over time
and I think I asked this of a lot of

guests, but it is what they would like to
see there from government or the private

sector to kind of change and help with
electrification.

My guess is that you would like to see
this really mostly through a better

charging infrastructure for semis.

But I'd be curious if there's anything
else you would say or add to that.

Right now, if there's a site that's being
built for commercial truck power, it needs

10 to 12 megawatts.

Nobody has that kind of what they call
headroom, that extra power laying around.

And so the lead time on that is five,
sometimes 12 to 15 years, which is just

much longer than we have if we're gonna
try and duck under the emissions

requirements we need to cut down on.

trucks in the road.

So there needs to be some letting loose of
the reins for the utilities to start

moving prior to the consumer indication
that they need the power so that when the

customer does come for a particular site
there is enough headroom and there's

enough available power so the utilities
can provide quicker service to those

customers for those charging sites.

So

It is a big change.

I liken it to an increase in gravity.

So a power utility from the point that
Thomas Edison kind of discovered

electricity and they started to move it
around New York till today was they really

didn't need to respond to any particular
request in under 24 months because you

couldn't build a new building or a new
demand.

in under 24 months.

If you're building a new apartment
building or a new Walmart or whatever it

was, you really couldn't build it any
faster than 18 to 24 months.

And so the utility never needed to move
any faster than that.

Today, you can pick up the phone and say,
hey, I want 20 electric semis delivered to

my site.

And they could potentially be there in
three to four months, potentially even

sooner when they really start to get up
from serious production.

So the utilities just really have to get
used to a heavier gravity as it were.

So.

suddenly they've gone from 24 months to 2
.4 months.

And so gravity has increased 100 fold.

They need the structure to change.

They need the speed to change.

And they need a little bit of loosening of
the reins in the right direction so that

they can operate quicker and get ahead of
what's coming because it's coming for

every municipality.

There's 3 ,000 utilities in the United
States and they all need to be able to.

change with this massive switch in
technology from internal combustion engine

to electrification and transportation.

I could not agree with you more and my
camera's dead, but I think now we

definitely have gone over time.

This has been super fascinating.

I want to say thank you so much for coming
on.

I know this, I've learned a lot and I know
a lot of the people who are listening have

definitely learned a lot about the
electric semi -space and how much of a big

difference that's going to make with
electrification and sustainability that

everyone is hoping for.

So thank you so much for coming on today
and we'll have to have you on again soon.

Pleasure, Chase.

Anybody want to come over to Portugal,
ring me up, follow me on LinkedIn.

Always happy to have a conversation about
electrification transportation.

As we bring this electrifying two -part
interview with Rustam Kocher to a close,

we want to express our deepest gratitude
to Rustam for sharing his unparalleled

insights and experiences with us here on
Grid Connections.

His deep dive into the total cost of
ownership, the groundbreaking entrance of

the Tesla Semi, and the potential of
vehicle -to-grid technology has provided

us with a clearer view of the road ahead
for the trucking industry and sustainable

transportation.

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Be sure to check them out for a deeper
dive in the innovation shaping our future.

Thank you for joining us for this special
two -part interview on Grid Connections,

and until next week, this is the Grid
Connections podcast signing