Good morning, great connections listeners.

Thank you for your patience on this last
two week hiatus.

In full disclosure, I just started a new
job at a flight school in central Oregon

and it has caused me to be able to have
some challenges with recording the last

couple of weeks and I'm hoping moving
forward there won't be as many delays but

just full disclosure that may happen in
the future again.

But today I'm joined by Steve Brichette.

He's an EV educator and the founder of
Plug and Play EV.

He shares with us his experience on
electric vehicles, especially kind of

living in the Boston area now, dealing
with sometimes the winter and cold of

Northeast US can be a challenge for EVs
and how he's been able to really excel and

make it easier and educate others about
the advantages of actually still being

able to go to an electric vehicle, even in
the cold and try to get over a lot of

those misperceptions.

I do also want to share that if you're
listening today on Wednesday, April 10th,

I'll actually be going live today at

5pm pacific on his youtube channel plug
and play ev where i'll be discussing road

tripping in an ev so definitely going to
be a great episode really recommend you

check that out and would love to kind of
get any feedback and thoughts for being on

other channels as well which reminds me i
want to say thank you for all of the great

suggestions for having people on our show
that you've sent to us

One thing worth noting though, if you can
also occasionally reach out to these

people that you're trying to get on the
show, it does help and it makes it easier

for us to get them on.

But really looking forward to some of the
upcoming episodes that we're working on.

And so I just want to say with that,
enjoy.

So thank you, Steve.

Yeah, thank you, Chase I appreciate you
having me.

Yeah, for anyone who might not be
familiar, can you tell us a little bit

more about what you're doing and then also
your company?

So I'm relatively new as an EV business, I
guess, but a long time EV driver.

So I've had about seven or eight years now
driving electric, but kind of came into

the business side of it as an EV content
creator and educator, I guess, about six,

seven months ago.

So Plug and Play EV started live as a
YouTube channel, just trying to kind of

bring the adventures of a lonely or
adventurous, depending on how you think

about it, bolt EV driver in the Northeast.

heading across various trips, but that
kind of evolved into a YouTube channel

that's got a nice little following now and
has slowly moved into becoming kind of a

marketer and content creator in the EV
space.

So I always try and put myself as an
educator first and business second, but

the two align quite well.

So I mean, yeah, a bolt driver, there's
especially in the Northeast with the

different weather and a lot of the
challenges you get up there.

Is there anything you can share maybe just
as a story that makes you a little

standout or a time that just you felt like
being a heavy driver, whether it was the

infrastructure of the car that really kind
of tested your metal?

All of it really.

Well, the Bolt's been a very solid EV, it
has its obvious limitations on the fast

charging side, because it's four or five
times slower than some of the more modern

cars.

But initially the channel kind of started
out of a, I wasn't even sure if it really

needed a channel because there were some
really good Bolt TV content creators, Eric

Way of the News Coolum channel out on the
west coast, was doing a great job from

California.

But I started to realise that charging
wasn't, as we all know now, charging

wasn't particularly great in the winter,
the cold of the north east.

as bad as maybe Canada or all the kind of
Minnesota type winters but it still

affects charging and I didn't see any
videos out there any content on that so I

started to kind of just film the sessions
figure out what I was doing and thought

well maybe that needs to be shared with
other Northeast bolt owners and it kind of

grew from that nucleus but yeah charging
infrastructure has been a big one since

day one obviously it's you know night and
day difference now but certainly still has

a ways to go in terms of reliability and
coverage in

areas but yeah just really starting to try
and get that information out there from

day one as a bolt TV owner to figure out
how we use these cars and what we need to

do to make the infrastructure better.

Yeah, that's great.

I know the bolts are pretty popular.

I'm just curious.

I haven't heard as many people are driving
them in the cold.

And so have there been any challenges that
you've had around just making sure that

the thermals and kind of road tripping or
do you see a pretty big hit when doing a

road trip?

Yeah, you

in the warmer months as it drops down in
New England.

And I'm in greater Boston, so it's not
exactly frigid, but it is below freezing

often enough.

And then you're getting charging rates
that are maybe in half, and the mileage

gets down to that 180, 170 miles.

So it's just about really knowing what
your long trips can then start to drag a

little bit, because you've got the hit of
range, you've got the hit of slower

charging, and that starts to get into a
little bit of drag.

many rip road trips I think you want to
take in the winter right so maybe

Thanksgiving down to Grandma's house
Christmas that kind of thing but January

February March we didn't typically do a
lot of road trips so really only those two

months of kind of the holidays were the
real kind of killers

Yeah, and so I appreciate you sharing that
with me from when talking about being an

EV educator.

And for those who are listening, I'm sure
that's something a lot of people who would

want to know more or kind of see some of
the stuff that you're doing.

And as I mentioned, you have your YouTube
video, but can you share some other kind

of examples of things that you do and
offer to kind of help others learn more

about electric vehicles?

Yeah, so I've got a long background in
content marketing, so I've kind of always

appreciated that using information to
share services.

So a lot of folks who are new to the EV
business world are also very good

educators or could be very good educators.

So the goal is really to take what those
folks do, whether it's myself or other

companies, and just figure out how they
can translate that into information that

connects with the consumers, the people
who are using

who have a little, not very much
experience in the EV side and figuring out

how to best communicate and package that
content to educate their potential buyers.

Could be the YouTube side of things,
videos, whether it's X, LinkedIn, there's

a bunch of platforms, but really it's
about figuring out what the potential

information provider can give to folks and
then packaging it in a way that they can

find it and consume it in the right kind
of length and something

That's right for them.

Yeah, so I'm kind of curious since you've
been doing this now for a while What are

some of the are there any trends that
you've seen about like a lot of people

used to ask about this or have these?

Misperceptions and that started to change
is that something you're saying?

It's almost reverted.

It's strange.

It's, you know, the first wave of folks
were very obviously early adopters and a

lot of people did their homework, you
know, way more than the dealers and people

they may go to seek help from.

So they, that first group of people,
yourself, myself, and a bunch of others

kind of went in knowing what we needed to
know, and probably a lot more that we

didn't.

But then the next wave has kind of, it's
starting to hit the, not the mainstream

exactly, but we're on that kind of tipping
point, right?

And you've got now a little pushback
against DVs, so you're seeing some of the

same kind of conversations you had for
people who were enthusiastic about

electric vehicles, but maybe had some
questions about, as you said, range in

winter, how they perform on long trips,
that kind of thing, and where to charge

them, of course.

That's coming back, and part of it is
because of the kind of media, it's

coverage that is not always negative, but
there's certainly a kind of hint of, will

these work?

Will they destroy the grid?

run out of juice on the side of the road
and none of that really happens to the

everyday you know early adopter certainly
and the infrastructure is getting so much

better that really those kind of range
concerns aren't that much of a real-world

problem but

The media perception is one that you have
to constantly morph and explain why some

things are valid.

People need to know what range they'll
get, what kind of charging speeds, how

many times they're going to stop.

But realistically you're not going to run
out on the side of the road unless you're

in a very unplanned road trip in the
middle of the Great Plains maybe.

Yeah, and it definitely does seem like
obviously there's the narrative and a

little bit of the clicks that drives from
that.

But it does seem like there's almost a lag
in the perception because in some ways,

like especially around the charging stuff,
a couple of years ago, yeah, it was pretty

bad.

And even like 18 months ago, it was pretty
bad.

And now it's definitely gotten a lot
better, a lot smoother.

And it's just interesting that now within
the last six months, you're starting to

see these stories.

So it just seems like it was kind of
lagging some of the perceptions and the

facts of what was actually happening.

And my apologies.

My dog is in the room and I think he's
just leaving.

So if you hear the noises, that's what it
is.

But talking about that, kind of looking at
that, what do you think are some of the

areas that when you have these
conversations, what are some of the things

that when you talk with the person that
they're like, oh,

I never thought about that and that kind
of then reframes the conversation and

starts to kind of get them excited or much
more optimistic and start to see like, oh

yeah, going to an EV really isn't a change
and actually it's a benefit for me.

I think the biggest thing is the gap
between when they'll need to refuel and

how, because the biggest focus is always
on road trips, especially in North

America, you have big dis-fast distances
to cover, those trips that people make

once or twice a year become the first
thing they think about, so you have a

range of 250-300 miles, although there are

EVs that do much more than that now, but
that's kind of the typical spot at the

moment.

People think, well my family's house is
400 miles away so I don't know the first

thing about how to get there.

So that's fine and that's a trip to plan
for.

Certainly it's good that they're thinking
about that.

But what they don't think about perhaps is
the other 50 weeks of the year when

they're not making those trips.

And you know, a lot of people can charge
in their driveway or at home.

You know, obviously there's different use
case scenarios for different residential

areas, but two thirds of the country.

consider an EV at the moment can charge at
home and get that benefit of, you know,

one-time installation of a home charger.

It's not generally that expensive.

Sometimes you can do it off the existing
connections, depending on your home

situation and how old the home is.

But really, the, you know, how much
benefit they're going to get from that to

wait like my car's ready to go now.

It's a 90% sitting there, you know.

just ready to leave the house because I
charged last night.

So you're cutting out that weekly gas
errand, and most people don't think about

that because it's just part of their lives
now.

They just stop for that five, 10 minutes.

But sometimes it's a dedicated errand.

Sometimes you wake up for the school run
and you haven't, you know, a person who

had it the previous day didn't fill it up.

And that's something you're cutting out of
your weekly day-to-day life, which is, you

know, most of the time, most of the year,
rather than this one trip that kind of

people fixate on that they will have to
figure out charging.

Yeah, it's funny you mention that because
I find like when I talk to people about

that kind of road trip misperception, I
think it's Uh, I think the logic and the

concern behind it is understandable But
it's kind of funny.

I now admittedly i'm kind of One of the
few people that does do road trips and

actually fairly frequently but multiple
times i've done About 1200 miles in a day

in an eevee and i've done it in a gas car,
too

And when people hear that, they're like,
oh, so it is even possible.

But then I've just also found right or
wrong.

I started like asking people and kind of
pushing them on it like the last time

they've gone on a road trip.

And for most people, it's not even like
once a year.

It has either been multiple years or
they're like, well, I guess I never really

have.

I usually fly.

And yeah.

right, of how much would you drive?

A lot of people do like to drive and
that's great, but if you'd like to drive

you'll probably like the EV side because
you get to have those nice stops every

200, 300 miles depending on your range.

But if it gets to that kind of, as you
were talking about, you know, if you're

getting to four digits of driving, that's
multiple days trips, you know, and at that

point the time concern really goes out of
the window because the flying parts of it,

unless you really have a lot of stuff to
move.

Right.

and it goes out the window.

So I never dismiss the long trip concern,
but it definitely takes up most of the

oxygen in the room when the local
day-to-day driving and how much driving

you actually do doesn't seem to register
with people, you know.

No, I totally agree.

I just think it's been interesting when
I've started really talking to people.

It just seems like more and more I've
pushed people on that and they're like,

yeah, I guess I really don't do those
anymore.

And I think that just is something they
kind of keep hearing.

And it and once again, I don't want to say
people don't do that.

I know plenty of people who do, but it's
just shocking to me.

Even over like the last five or six years,
when I've started like really talking to

people about that more than I like.

Yeah, I guess I've maybe only ever driven
four to five hundred miles in a day.

Yeah, I think that's all.

into the rare thing where I yell, I'll do
a thousand.

It's a long day, but even with an EV, it
does add time.

But if you're smart about it, it's really
not as big of a difference.

And like you said, it's kind of nice
actually, every hour and a half to two

hours, just to kind of get out for like
10, 15 minutes, walk around, stretch, and

kind of a good mental reboot.

on a road trip.

I mean, there are natural limitations just
to the human, but whether it's the car or

keep going, but the human has to stop,
stretch, eat, all the rest of it.

Exactly and I would definitely run into
those.

And I think that's where you just have to
be smart about it and try to figure out

where you want to make those stops or if
you decide you need to stop sooner.

That's kind of where it's important to
have not only just working charging

infrastructure but like a car with a
really reliable nav system where you can

say, okay, yep, this works.

Hopping out.

Exactly.

Previously we would make these road trips
around the Charger, you know, wouldn't

really gloss over that.

It was, we had to stop where the Charger
was.

So that, I quite often go from New York to
Ohio and that's a fairly well covered

route.

Now we see that changing every time we go
across.

Now you could stop at these brand new
throughway plazas that have four, six,

eight Chargers.

And you know, there's Tesla ones as well,
pretty close.

There's been a regular non-Tesla.

connectors as well.

So you've got the options there now but
that wasn't the case, you know, even as

you said, you know, 18 months maybe two or
three years ago certainly.

There was much more organization around
where the charges were than now when you

can start to get off the, you know, most
of these service platters, at least along

the routes that I travel.

Yeah, I think there's quite a few trips
I've done kind of through the Midwest, and

that is where you might get a little bit
more challenging, but like you're saying,

it's becoming more common to find these
things.

The actual infrastructure itself has been
more reliable for me at least.

And then the documentation, even if it's
not the car, just even the amount of apps

now that are pretty effective for planning
and finding these stops is made it a lot

easier.

Yeah, for sure.

And it's kind of that's what's going to
keep changing.

The big focus in the middle of the country
is really building out those travel

corridors with the funding that's going
through at the moment.

So if you look at the amount of changes
every week, but it was about last time I

checked, 56%, 57% of that funding has gone
to gas stations and truck stops, because

that's where those, when you think about
what's off and exit at most of these

places on travel routes, that's what's
there.

So a lot of these loves Flying J, Travel
Senses of America,

quite a lot of funding to put these things
in so that people really don't have to

think about it that much anymore.

Yeah, and I think that is an area that's
kind of especially I've noticed with a lot

of the public traditional public fast
chargers really struggled with putting in

some of these fast chargers were always
sometimes actually fairly far off the

road, especially if you're looking at
highway or interstate.

You really have to do a detour.

And it's really kind of good to see
whether some of that's the traditional

fast chargers.

But it does seem like more just the actual
traditional gas stations.

And.

large companies like the pilots and the
flying J's of the world, they're actually

making the investments themselves.

And so I think once again, just the more
visibility people see of electric vehicle

chargers, the more they realize it's a
actual possibility and the less of a

change it is to what they are now.

Because I think having to drive like 10
minutes off the highway to go find and

park in a Walmart definitely isn't the
most ideal experience for a lot of people.

And there being now enough EVs on the road
and interest around in general that

competition is forming and really pushing
the traditional, I guess, fueling

stations.

and those others in the space to really
either have to get their heck together or

just actually figure out a way to stay
competitive.

But I guess that kind of brings up one of
the things I know you wanted to talk about

a little bit today was just around NEVI
funding.

So I'd really love to kind of get your
thoughts on it.

We've definitely had a few guests on the
past that have shared kind of updates

around it, but I would really love to hear
what you've been seeing and what you want

to discuss with us today, Steve.

Yeah, so it's kind of interesting the
Northeast has received.

the most nevysites in the world, at least
the ones that are energized.

It's still in the single digits, but we
have a few in New York that have received

some funding.

The first Tesla federally funded Tesla
site went live last week, I think, in

Maine, which is a visit I have to plan at
some point as the weather improves.

But so a lot of the, I think the first in
the nation was Ohio, then we went to

Pennsylvania, there's one out in Hawaii.

So you're starting to see a little spread.

Obviously these are very different
locations.

here.

maybe the up in Maine.

But, you know, the biggest piece is, I
think, that these are starting to make...

other networks, maybe outside of Tesla and
Electrify America, which were kind of the

first two to cross the country and make a
strategic nationwide network for all of

their limitations perhaps in Electrify
America.

The one thing they did do is build out a
very large nationwide network across two

or three routes fairly quickly.

And what you're trying to see the NEVI
funding doing initially is filling in

those gaps and say, for every 50 miles of
interstate along these alternative fuel

corridors that have been designated in
each state.

so that they have exactly what we've just
talked about, is locations within a mile

of the interstate exit and somewhere that
even if one is busy, you can roll onto the

next one and know that you're gonna be
good to fill up your EV.

So I think it's interesting that has kind
of driven a lot of these states and you

see the gaps in preparation now because
states like New York and Ohio, which had a

previous plan, they were already working
on this at the state level, whether it was

through power authorities or departments
of transport, they've started to say,

got this map, existing map, that we wanted
to fill.

Now we've got federal funds coming in to
help us and they can start to drop the

pins in places that they really need to
fill in those gaps.

Other states are just scrambling and on
the back foot to be like, I don't know

where to put these things, we've never
been through the process of sighting, you

know, looking at a map, figuring out where
the power is, trying to contact the right

site hosts, all of this stuff that goes
into the long, long...

process of getting a charger in the
ground, which I don't think people

appreciate can be 18 to 24 months is quite
reasonable for that from an initial

conception to actually energizing a site.

So there's a lot of work that goes into it
and I think the states that are leading

that, you can see that they've had some
kind of planning ahead of time.

But the end result is going to be the
country, if the states get their plans in

place, covered with at least four chargers
of 150 kilowatts or more and having that

capability.

ability to just roll off the site, roll
off the end state, keep going once you've

done your whatever you do on a rest stop.

Yeah, I think it's great to finally see
some of those funds turn from just kind of

projects and announcements to actually
things people can go and use and kind of

hope to see that accelerate further.

I know some of the states have kind of
been slow to adopt it and some of that

also has just been due to all sorts of
changes along the way.

Not just obviously part of that is
announcements by automakers kind of moving

towards the North American charging
standard.

But it also just seemed like there was a
lot of questions even around how to.

define and read and what some of these
requirements actually stood for.

I know a big one was the variance in
voltage.

And now we're trying to, we're finally
seeing a lot of this alignment happen.

And now that these projects are on the
ground, I'm hoping that for those states

who have kind of been laggards or just
kind of waiting to have them, the more

clarity that now that they're seeing that
the funds are being made, this isn't being

kind of on hold, it'll be kind of what
gets the momentum for these other states

to get their projects online as well.

Yeah, there's quite a few.

I know Wyoming is one and there's a couple
other states where more charging

infrastructure on the interstate would be
awesome.

They have been lagging a little bit with
that implementation.

Yeah, there's certainly some of those
states that really could have benefited

from it.

It's not, you know, it seems to be a
political divide thing sometimes, but

you've certainly got, you know, your
Ohio's and Texas seem to be trying to

forge ahead.

And about half the states, pretty close to
half of the states now have, you know,

announced some kind of funding and
they've, usually when they announce the

first round of awards, that means sites,
you know, they actually identify where the

sites are going to be.

So that is pretty, you know, then you're
just into the construction phase, which

is, you know, depending on the location.

It could be 50, 60 days or on the upper
end, closer to three months.

But it's fairly quick turnaround.

That's why you'll start to see a bunch of
these rolling in.

The initial chikrin has been that it's
been two years or two plus years since the

legislation was announced and they really,
how does it take this long?

Well, probably three quarters of that was
just the plans, getting the plans in

place.

So you see the early States starting to
move.

And as you said, I think there's going to
be a little bit of neighborly rivalry of

my next door neighbor.

once CVs hit that kind of tipping point at
the mainstream, people will be saying, you

know, why is that state so good, you know,
well covered and why can't I drive, you

know, down the road to my local kind of
family in West Virginia or Wyoming or any

of these places that have kind of left
things a little bit late.

Yeah, it's also been really interesting
looking at, you talk about some of the

delays, and I think for the Nevi funds and
some of the IRA funds, a large part of

that was the actual kind of definition of
getting that clarity around what these

will be.

But I think one of the common things I
hear from people who are a little confused

as to like announcements around charging
and.

even when it's not, and it's why it takes
so long, is just the implementation and

what needs to be done from the utility
side.

I think even the other day, Tesla's kind
of been famous for that they've now been

building their charging sites almost
essentially pre-fab, and then they just

almost just drop ship them and it's ready
to go, and they just said they set a new

record with doing that in four days.

And so I think a lot of people see that
four day, like, oh my God, this is great.

This is gonna make it so these can be done
all the time.

I might be able to go one place, and then
next week

the actual site live and is that possible?

Sure, but I think the biggest challenge
that's been facing getting more in the

ground outside of even that funding,
that's in some ways it slowed a couple

things down but now we're kind of just
seeing that more cohesive building of it

has really been around the permitting and
getting the work from the utility and

trying to get that.

moving faster because that alone to itself
can sometimes mean a site takes up to a

year to get approved or getting the new
transformers, other site improvements that

need to be done actually by the utility
before the charge point provider even

shows up and puts something in the ground.

So I'm curious if there's any thoughts you
have around that or if you've as an EV

educator worked with any utilities to kind
of help them highlight ways that they

could be doing

seeing if there's ways they can kind of
speed up that.

Yeah, I haven't worked with anyone
specifically on the process itself, but

certainly the communicating out where
they're going and how these sites are

going in is a big piece of it.

So I was down in the New York
International Auto Show last week with the

New York Power Authority, sorry, week
before now, with the New York Power

Authority.

And that was really insightful to hear
what their challenges have been, because

they've been through it, as I say.

They were doing this two or three years
before the NEDD funding was really there

because

this stuff out and we're literally the day
after the eclipse here.

And a lot of those sites that they had the
foresight to put in that weren't along

these major east-west routes which is
typically commonly what you've seen in

other states, they've built out into these
more remote areas like the Adirondacks

which go up to the New York and Canada
border down in the southern tier of the

state which is kind of mid-state I guess.

So a lot of these places that people want
to access in an EV in a relatively high

adoption state,

those authorities knowing that they needed
to put that in was a big piece of it.

Then you obviously have to communicate out
where these things are, how people can use

it.

So the piece of the auto show was a very
large booth, you know, by the EV test

track, fittingly.

So they could hear, you know, EVs, they
could go and have a really, you know,

exciting test drive, get all the kind of
bums in seats parts of the EV adoption

piece kind of checked off, and then come
over to this booth and see right on a

practical level

how do I charge the thing?

Yeah, I know it's fun.

Yeah, I know I like the vehicle.

But to your point, where is the
infrastructure?

Is it looking good near my house?

Is it looking good 200 miles from my
house?

So for New York State specifically, stuff
like the Chargeway Beacon that they use,

which is an app that you can have on your
phone, but it's like a very big kind of

kiosk version of that app.

So people can literally stand by the map
and then move around with an

in their state and beyond, plan road
trips, that kind of thing.

So getting those kind of marketing assets
out there is really, really valuable

because that's much more of an interactive
piece, right?

So someone can tell you the vehicle has
300 miles and that's great, but then when

you look at a road trip planner and see,
right, this is what that road trip of 500,

600 miles looks like, that's quite a big
educational piece of getting people

confident that they can make this work for
them.

Yeah, definitely.

And that's great to hear that Chargeway
had one of their beacons there.

We've actually had Matt on the show before
a couple of times and definitely big fans

of what they're doing, trying to help
around that education, make the charging a

lot simpler for people.

I'm curious, being at the Yacht-O-Show,
were there any things that you, I guess

one, were there any EVs or other new cars
that you saw that you liked?

I'm curious if there was any other...

just kind of interesting trends you were
seeing in general since you had both

combustion, electric vehicles, I guess
also hybrids there as well.

Yeah, hybridization is a big piece for
some of them.

Obviously Toyota will always lead that
kind of side of things.

And they always have a massive, massive
booth.

A lot of these things was Electrify Expo
in New York a couple of years ago.

They had pretty large showing.

But just in general, I kind of go dip in
and out of auto shows.

But I'm certainly seeing a lot more EVs on
the floor.

I think it was somewhere between 40 and 50
electric vehicles that were on show.

they would have been maybe five to ten.

The big reveals were actually

you know, for most of the brands seem to
be either plug-in hybrids or, you know, a

new version of something that they had
previously produced, which was combustion.

So maybe the big reveals weren't electric
this year, but we had Polestar 4 was

unveiled there and they, or at least they
showed the North American version, the

pricing.

So Polestar CEO Thomas Inglath was, you
know, there on site to kind of push EVs.

And obviously Polestar as an EV only brand
is going to, you know, take a lot of

attention for electric vehicles.

Kia EV9 won a couple of awards, not just
the World Electric Car of the Year, but

also the World Car of the Year.

Hyundai IONIQ 5N won the performance car
of the year, which I don't know, put a few

noses out of joint I think for people who
want to hear a roar of an engine when

they're performance vehicles.

But just generally every automaker, even
GM, which in the past has disappointed me

because they kind of, you know, they had a
lot of all GM promises, but only really

the next gen vehicles weren't really on
display, weren't delivered.

We had the Silverado EV, Blazer EV,
Equinox EV.

So I start to get to a point where I can't
remember all the models.

That's a good sign that the automakers are
doing a good job.

Good job.

And then with that, I mean, there are
obviously a lot of people there.

I'm kind of just curious what, the big
thing has always been Tom bad.

And I have found it effective, just
getting to know butts in seats and people

driving cars.

I'm just curious if there were any other
things that you've seen that's really

effective to get people kind of over that
initial hump or kind of confusion around

EV and just what you found as far as maybe
just the tone and.

thoughts from people at auto.

I just feel like auto shows, they've been
struggling honestly for a long time and

especially since COVID.

And so I'm just kind of curious if you saw
a lot of just normal people going there to

check out cars in general or was it more
of a press announcements with a personal

connection, a part to it.

I'm just kind of curious to learn a bit
more about the tone and anything that

stood out to you.

because I went on the media day, so I
really only saw the people.

They were doing their unveils, you know,
so it was much more of a kind of big

splash trying to make headlines, that kind
of thing.

So you got some of the flavor.

But most of these people are inside
baseball.

They know, you know, they're either
pro-EV, maybe not so much for EV, but

whatever they were, they knew their stuff.

Day to day, I think, I mean you're right
on auto shows in general, I think there's

a lot less buzz around them than there
used to be.

There still were some decent
announcements, but you know, it's not what

it was in terms of this is where
everything will happen.

I think you're seeing, like for example,
you know, Tesla wasn't there, so

immediately that's, you know, more than
half of the EV market in the United States

not covered.

Although I think they did then a couple of
days later, they must have known that

there was a crowd in town because they
were in town with a cyber truck dragging

around a Tesla Model Y in a

case around Manhattan so there's
definitely some activity around that.

Rivianne actually down in their showroom
down there in the meatpacking district had

the R2 on display.

I don't know if the R3 was there.

I didn't get a chance to go down but so
you I think you're seeing around when

there are these big events and they know
people are in town they will

put events around it, but then not the new
automakers, the new EV only automakers,

other than Polestar, were trying to find
other ways to do these big reveals rather

than the traditional auto show.

And as far as people go, I think, it's
still a nice family event.

I think if you can go out and spend an
hour or two looking at the cool cars,

that's great.

But I think for pure EV adoption, you're
probably looking at more of these, like

the month we're in right now is Drive
Electric Earth Month, right?

Stuff like that, the kind of grassroots
level, people being able to go to these

events

have an actual test drive, because even
the test drives weren't really, there were

ride-alongs at the auto show rather than
actual test drives.

So stuff like Electrify Expo, which is in
a bunch of different cities this year,

those have actual test drives and slightly
bigger tracks.

And if you go to these events that are,
you know, just EV owners taking their

vehicles because they're early adopters
and they kind of, you know, want to show

them off, you get a lot more of these kind
of real world stories, I think, so

they'll, and they'll tell you, you know,
most EV owners aren't shy about saying,

this journey was a nightmare, this was
perfect.

These are the ones that, this is where
it's gonna have a problem.

Pretty much, yeah.

And I think that's kind of that EV
educator piece again, right?

It's not really, this isn't a particularly
old industry if you take it as the modern

kind of mile marker, starting with the
Nissan Leaf and then the Tesla Model S.

And for five years, we really didn't have
that much activity.

I didn't come into it until that bolt kind
of 2016, 2017 point, so it's not.

very long in the toothless industry.

There's a lot of stuff to learn still, and
it's all changing every month.

There's something new happening in
charging, in the models, in the technology

most months.

So you really just have to stay on top of
it and then pass that knowledge on to

people who are coming into it just from a
complete blank slate, I think.

Yeah, I think that's some great points
about just it seems to be most effective

when it is more of a grassroots thing than
by current owners.

I do want to take one step back though,
because you mentioned something that kind

of was interesting around like how Tesla
and Rivian more of the I mean, I don't

think you really call Tesla startup
anymore, but they've always had definitely

count at least a startup mentality in
their business approach.

And so I was just curious when you see.

I think it kind of goes back to what I was
asking earlier about just like the current

state of honor shows and it's very
interesting to see that in Rivian doing

their own things, taking advantage of some
of the buzz of being in town and people

there, but also just kind of like, yeah,
we're going to do our own thing instead of

having to pay for it.

Is that, I'm just kind of curious of your
thoughts of that strategy because

obviously we're talking about it.

It is creating buzz.

And I had seen some headlines, I had been
kind of busy, so I hadn't really fully

appreciated that those were all both
around the time of the New York Auto Show.

I'm just kind of curious on your thoughts
if those are the ways that maybe more

traditional auto companies need to start
thinking more to really be positioning

EVs, to kind of stand out and do things
that are a bit different to get that

interest.

I think so.

I mean, it's, you know, from a broader
marketing perspective, you know, you

either put your marketing kind of efforts
into somebody else's hands with an auto

show to an extent.

I mean, obviously you have the design and
the creative, but you're also putting

yourself into a very loud environment.

So yes, you can probably come out and
maybe that's part of the awards.

You know, I mean, I don't know how many,
how much people really put stock in these

awards, but they certainly, you know, all
the band.

Manufacturers will make big noise about
these things, but it's only one piece of

maybe four five six other automakers with
big announcements So you're competing for

that attention and there's only so much
writing and so many articles that people

can put out, right?

So Rivian having a presence in New York
for that was smart, but then they did the

big reveal for the R2 and the R3 I think
it was probably three or four weeks before

and that

Yeah.

bubble, we hear all of this stuff anyway,
it's never gonna pass us by, but they

certainly, you know, for the size of the
company and how much presence they, you

know, don't have a massive presence in the
US just yet, but that took a lot of

attention, you know, it's the R2 being in
a relatively affordable, you know, family

SUV and not being launched at one of the
biggest auto shows in the country at the

time of its launch, you know, is notable.

And I think they get to define that then,
they get to own that experience,

It's true.

in Laguna Beach, they're trying to push
this kind of adventure or kind of

outdoorsy family adventure brand vibe.

And you can still do that.

Super is a good kind of contrast because
they have that and they'd always have a

really good booth.

It's an experience and they define that.

But they're only a piece of the wider show
in that, whereas Rivian completely owned

the launch of that.

And I think you go back and see an
automaker, traditional automaker doing

The ID Buzz is a good example, right?

They did the kind of Surfside California
thing to kind of launch the ID Buzz.

you know, give it that brand value for the
surfing kind of beach side atmosphere.

And you wouldn't get that as an auto show,
or if you did, it would be very kind of

fake and artificial.

So I think that real world define it,
choose your timing, you know, do it on

your terms is going to be valuable for,
and then EV is a chance to do that.

You know, it's a chance to reinvent how
you do the vehicle, certainly, but also

how you market, how you sell to people.

So I think it's an interesting way to kind
of change things up and maybe

things that worked in the past but are
kind of going by the wayside now.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think it's interesting when you
using the example of Rivian, just looking

at the I think it's interesting everything
you just said, but specifically when you

reference Subaru, because I think so much
of the buzz in the comment section after

the

Rivian announces like, oh, this is going
to kill Tesla or this is all this is going

to sell millions and millions of copies,
which who knows?

It might it looks like actually a pretty
awesome car.

I know a couple of people who already put
down reservations for him.

But I think in practice, once you actually
get into reality and out of the comment

section online, I think what you said
about server is really interesting and

pretty accurate.

As someone who's owned a couple of servers
and know plenty of people that still do

like.

I know some people who went to Tesla, but
in a lot of ways it's a different kind of

psychographic if you wanna look at it as
for like the buyer and stuff.

And there really hasn't been as great of a
focus or niche for that kind of lifestyle

or building those products, especially in
that price point.

And so, while I think a lot of media
narrative and the comment section is

always talking about, oh, this is gonna.

It's either Rivian versus Tesla, which I
don't think it is at all.

To me it's more like if you're a legacy
automaker, especially like a Subaru who

has had a niche, but overall is actually
pretty small volume in the US, but it's

one of their larger markets still as an
automaker.

That's really the concern is to see a
brand like Rivian that's getting those

people that have been kind of your tried
and true so excited about EVs and so

excited about a new product that really is
focused on them that.

I it's just been interesting to see that
with the other.

You can kind of say that with Tesla when
they first got into the space around the

traditional premium European automakers.

And now they've even kind of come down a
little bit.

Well, I would still say it's a premium car
in a lot of ways.

Their price point and what they offer kind
of makes them competitive with like a

Honda and Toyota and their volumes and as
well.

And so it's.

I'm curious if there's anything that
you've been seeing that the way that the

new EV startups or startup mentality has
been pushing automakers and why you don't

think that there has been more concern or
outward expression by like the legacy

automakers, especially if you're the CEO
of Subaru, what are you doing after the R2

was just announced?

long term, a pretty serious long term risk
to them as a company.

Yeah, it's interesting, you know, long
term versus short term, right?

Because I think, you know, you're still
going to sell a lot more.

Toyota's than you are Rivian's or Subaru's
even than you are Rivian's but that brand

loyalty only goes so far I think you do
see it translate a little bit That's why

stuff like the VZ4X from Toyota and the
Subaru Salterra will sell even though

they're not particularly great EV from a
nerd kind of point of view don't charge

fast don't really do anything that special
There's a brand loyalty that will extend a

little bit, but you're right long term I
mean these are you know Rivian is a brand

that is forging it It's really well done

everything they put together is well
crafted as an outdoors package.

So it's not just the R2 that they launch,
it's a tent.

Whether it comes to fruition or not is
another thing because everybody wanted

their camp kitchen for the R1-2 but that
doesn't seem to be coming.

But they still have accessories, they are
kind of geared to putting together an

ecosystem.

So I think the other side of it that is
maybe pushing traditional automakers is

software.

and leading with that kind of piece of,
you know, the car will do a lot of the

work for you or the infotainment and the
software regularly updating itself, having

a vehicle in the driveway that is not
going old by the model year, you know,

it's getting updated as you go.

I think you see a little bit of that with
Ford.

They've probably been the most prominent
US automaker at least that has kind of

started to drop a lot of updates.

You know, there's a lot of power-ups that
come through and they've led obviously

with the...

transition to an ACS with the adapter.

Part of that is software as well.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes.

People couldn't get that vehicle charging
on, you know, Tesla superchargers, even if

they had the adapter without that software
update.

So you have to have that system in place.

So it's not trivial, you know, Tesla has
been building this for years and has just

led with it as a software first kind of
company.

Rivian is taking that to a similar kind of
level for the outdoor stuff and tweaking

your vehicle for, you know, being able to
adjust ride height,

for towing all these kinds of things that
maybe manual before, you're starting to

see them come as not just software that
comes with the vehicle, but software

updates over the air.

And I think that's challenging a lot of
the traditional automakers, certainly

iDrive and IONIQ 5, and it's not.

It's night and day difference.

I do get over the air updates, which was a
step up on my Bolt TV, but they are once

every half a year, I think, and usually
it's something like the icons change and I

get a new map interface or something,

other manufacturers or EV startups or EV
first companies are dropping these things

with all kinds of new features and things
that actually affect your ownership

experience.

Yeah, I think especially around the
conversation with like long-term and when

you look at like kind of brand loyalty
that the software Is I think been kind of

the biggest Achilles heel and maybe not
fully appreciated I think a lot of people

even still kind of like oh, yeah, that was
cool We

put a lot of money into it, but it's just
turned out to be such a big hassle and Ken

has now dismissed it.

But like your time out with Rivian,
especially, like I think that is a huge

component while there is a lot of their
marketing and the hardware and the camp

kitchen and all these sorts of things that
they've kind of tried to put a focus on to

even reinforce that alignment.

I think

the people who actually buy the cars and
then that day-to-day experience and become

those kind of grassroots and other people
like pushing it, the software makes a huge

difference in that experience for them to
kind of feel like they are having a fine

tailored experience unlike what they would
have gone from driving a Subaru or

something.

And don't

I think it's just really interesting to me
that software is a big component, I think,

of that long-term brand loyalty.

And I know that me personally, that's been
a big thing for me, and especially when

you are going, as we started on, like long
road trips, like if you're gonna, it

almost seemed like for a while that you
had Tesla.

I think Porsche had a little bit, but
unfortunately it's not like they're a very

accessible EV, but those are two cars that
had pretty good route planning and that is

once again such a big part of the EV
experience and that is driven by software.

And so I'm curious to see how, and Rivian
obviously is now kind of gone up and

they're sending a lot of these updates
very frequently.

And I do think that when you look at the
long-term strategy for these

EV focused companies that is probably
going to be the big one of the big three

things that makes them the companies that
will be taking so much market share long

term from the traditional companies is
that software that leads to a much more

engaging and kind of personalized
experience.

I'm curious if there's any other things
that you've seen that have really impacted

the brand loyalty for EVs or things that
have kind of made.

you either loyal to your both or now kind
of more loyal to the Ionic as just like as

far as these kinds of special things that
stand out for you.

No, I think actually it's almost the
opposite.

It's done a kind of reset on brand loyalty
for a lot of, at least early adopters, I

don't know how their early mainstream will
kind of position themselves, but I think

the reason I chose the IONIQ was purely
the new platform, the 800 volt platform

and the charging.

So it's been, you know, we've gone from
40, 50 minute stops to 20 minute stops.

for our charging needs.

So, you know, it gives a little more
flexibility on travel, but I don't think

other than being quite impressed with that
EV technology, that I'm a Hyundai or Kia

or any other kind of loyal customer.

And that wasn't the case.

I've kind of loved the Bolt actually.

It was a really good car that I'd happily
have again as a kind of second EV.

But again, GM has made some missteps.

And in terms of the software kind of thing
that we're talking about, Hyundai hasn't

really pulled up any trees in delivering,
you know.

regular updates and kind of system that's
probably the weaker parts of the car.

I don't think any of them have really,
including the new, the new manufacturers,

you know, there's Tesla has its following,
of course, you know, that's, that's a huge

kind of driver in the industry.

But even them, I think you're seeing how
do they crack this mainstream?

You know, there's a whole pool of people
out there who are brand new to electric

vehicles, and there are some kind of
segments that will stay with a Subaru,

that will stay with Toyota because they
know it and they have that brand value.

But I think it's splintering and
fracturing to a point where you say, well,

yeah, Toyota can build an excellent,
reliable combustion car or a hybrid car.

But I don't think I think everybody has a
track record to create now with

electrification.

And I think you're seeing brands like
Hyundai and Kia.

trying to kind of reinvent themselves.

Like their design side has gone
completely, you know, in the opposite

direction.

And a lot of really taking advantage of
the form factor of EV is being able to

stretch out that wheelbase, make more
space inside the car, you know, take away

the tunnel.

There's a bunch of different things that
are kind of going into this transition and

it's an opportunity for a lot of
automakers to start to really move.

I think what you're seeing though is, you
know, some

Some automakers, traditional automakers,
fumbled the ball a little bit.

Nissan being a good example, you know,
we've talked about them starting the

movement with the Leaf and then just kind
of going off on a weird side track, kind

of failing to deliver their Nissan area at
a time when it would have been pretty good

EV and then launching it at a time when
it's basically, you know, one of many,

many crossover SUVs in the market.

GM, another good one, you know, came to
market pretty before, you know, Tesla

really with the Model 3.

They had the Bolt TV doing that 250, 300
miles, you know, before Tesla had that

Model 3.

But again, just kind of the switch to
Altium has been really kind of...

Fumbled a little bit, you know the
software side seems to have been a problem

They haven't managed to ramp up production
as quickly as they wanted So then

discontinuing the bolt as a you know, the
most affordable EV on the market You just

see these kind of semi

the missteps that, you know, they could
have built both of these manufacturers,

General Moses and Nissan, very different,
but they could have built quite a loyal

base of EV followers and adoption, and
then build from there to prove that

they've got the kind of chops to become an
EV only, or at least an EV primary

manufacturer.

But I think it's just a big opportunity
for everybody.

You know, there's a lot of, a long way to
go.

Nobody has really convinced everybody,
except for Tesla, that they can make and

market EVs, you know, that are compelling.

consistently.

So it's kind of early days, even though it
seems like we've been here for a long

time.

It's a lot of road ahead of

Thank you for joining us today and a big
thank you to Steve for sharing his

experience and thoughts on the EV industry
with all of us today.

I really appreciate everything that people
have been doing to send feedback as well

as share recommendations for guests on the
show.

I also hope that it wasn't too obvious
that I recorded this episode at 5 a .m.

my time, but some of these things that
we've had to do kind of on the fly with

the new job, but hoping to kind of get to
more of a...

rhythm that should make it a lot easier
and kind of get back to where we were

previous to the little hiatus there.

Once again remember this evening I will be
on and this evening being Wednesday April

10th I will be on Steve's podcast as well
talking about EV road tripping at 5 p .m.

Pacific.

Once again thank you and until next time
this is the Grid Connections podcast

signing off.