Good morning grid connections listeners.

Welcome to the fourth season of grid
connections.

And today we have Steve Birkett the
founder of plug and play EV returning

along with Walter Schulze joining us for
the first time.

Walter is the host of the network
architect channel where he hosts the EV

driver series.

He shares timely updates on EV charging
station providers and new locations that

are adding across the country.

Together we'll all delve into some of the
latest perceptions around EV sales

numbers.

and explore maybe it's not all doom and
gloom as the headlines would want you to

believe.

Then explore the challenges dealerships
face in selling electric vehicles and

examine the ongoing rollout of EV charging
infrastructure across the country.

Plus, we'll also discuss some of the
tactics charge point operators use when

discussing an EV fast charging location to
meet various use cases.

Being based in a more rural part of the
West Coast, I really appreciate Stephen

Walter for sharing their own recent
experiences with driving their electric

vehicles on the East Coast.

and some of the road trips into the
Midwest they've taken.

It's always fascinating to hear how the EV
landscape varies across different regions.

It seems like out of the three of us, I've
had the most issues lately, but we all

agree that overall it continues to be an
overly positive and improving experience

for all of us.

As a reminder, if you enjoy this episode,
please share it with at least one friend

or colleague who would find it interesting
as well.

Don't forget to leave a positive review on
our podcast page.

Your support helps us reach more listeners
and continue bringing you great content.

With that, enjoy.

Walter, do you want to kick it off?

Certainly my name is Walter Schulze, the
owner and operator of the Network

Architect Channel Studios, which is
basically just my home office, really

nothing much to it.

I'm a technologist by profession for
multiple decades and have become an EV

enthusiast over the past several years and
have been pursuing YouTube content

creation probably for 18 months or so and
find a way of...

Pursuing an outlet for my passion for EVs
is a lot of fun to engage with the social

media community out there.

I'm Steve Birkett.

I'm a plug and play EV on YouTube.

I've been doing it since around 2018,
2019.

Years seemed to fly by, but started off in
a bolt EV back then and it was much

different landscape than it is now.

Started thinking we've talked about it
chase a little bit on the previous

episode, just covering some of the
content, cold weather charging, the very

early stages of DC fast charging and kind
of grew from there.

So eventually hooked up with a guy called
Eric Way out on the West Coast in

who's even older OG Bolt owner than myself
and Walter joined us as well for what we

now have as a fortnightly podcast on EV
charging and electric vehicle

infrastructure called Coast to Coast EVs.

So that's about where we are today.

Yeah.

I just want to say thank you both for
being on.

I know Eric couldn't make it today, but
we're helping to have him on a future

episode as well.

And definitely recommend anyone who loves
our content on grid connections.

I think, the show that you guys do
perfectly aligns with kind of a lot of the

similar topics and really appreciate just
kind of getting some of the context and

some of the, definitely, I don't want to
say microcosms, but definitely some of the

other areas that you guys really do focus
on that.

personally, I just don't think get enough
attention.

So I've always been a big fan of the show.

but with that, I know one of the things
that we kind of wanted to probably kick it

off with is just, I think there's, it's
really been the theme probably for the

last six months, maybe even more, news
around kind of a pullback in the EV space

and EV charging.

And I think, some of that's finally
starting to change where people are

realizing that it's more media headlines
and hype than reality.

Maybe if anything short -term struggles
for a few players in the space, but

everything is still kind of going in the
right direction.

So with that, I would kind of just love to
kind of kick that off and just get your

own thoughts about any areas that either
of you are seeing, maybe, maybe some

slowdown, but the areas that you still
remain optimistic for growth and electric

vehicles in the space overall.

Nobody really told folks in my area that
there was a slowdown because I see more

and more diverse range of EVs every day.

Even Walter drives a Cadillac Lyric, as
I'm sure I'll get onto.

I'm seeing a lot more of those nowadays.

So there's just the diversity locally.

I'm just here north of Boston in
Massachusetts.

So obviously have that, you know, coastal,
slightly friendly EV state perhaps than

some of the others where people will focus
the negativity.

But I think if you look at the numbers
and...

the general trends, although you can
always pick out some individual month to

month or year to year stats that kind of
show an issue, not least, you know, Tesla

at the moment at the start of the year in
Q1 is the one that's kind of down a little

bit, but then you look to your Ford and
Ikea, even GM kind of potentially coming

up with some of their new models.

It really, it starts to put the light to
that kind of EV sales are a lot of people

try to make out dropping, but really it's
kind of a slowdown in growth, which is

kind of natural when you consider you're
going from that early adopter

where nobody had an EV to that kind of
slightly more mature market where the

growth is inevitably going to slow but it
isn't cratering, it's not stopping, this

is just kind of another little blip on the
way to wider EV adoption.

Yeah, I think that sums it up pretty well.

I don't know if there was anything else
Walter you wanted to add to that or any

other things that maybe you've seen.

My personal opinion is we have the
economics.

On our side, fleet owners are adopting
electric vehicles not because they're

trying to save the planet, they're trying
to improve their balance sheets.

And when economics makes sense, there's
the phrase, no army can withstand the

force of an idea whose time has come.

And I think it's becoming clearer and
clearer that the economics around EVs just

makes sense for fleet owners and also
household budgets.

And when

that's the case when you can improve the
quality of life and also decrease the

expenditures for cost for transportation
in the same swoop.

It's very difficult to say that there's
going to be a decrease in sales.

In fact, I don't know anyone who has a
forecast for EV sales that is predicting a

downturn.

There's two notable ones, Bloomberg and
Coxville Automotive just in the past, I

think, month have both forecasted
increased growth for EVs.

And they're either one of those are
environmentally centric outlets.

They're very pragmatic.

Just today I was watching the Autoline
Daily and there was a report about Toyota,

which makes arguably the worst EV in the
market.

And there's some question if they're
trying to torpedo their own.

initiatives or whatever but the BZ -4X,
the RZ Lexus and the Subaru Soltera

combined year -to -date are 17 ,000 units
and for the producer of perhaps the worst

EV those are pretty solid numbers you know
back five years ago 17 ,000 units year -to

-date to June 1st would have been
something to celebrate and now these are

just kind of like meh numbers.

So I think the demand is there and as I
said fleet owners are proceeding as if

this whole

of lack of ED demand doesn't exist.

Ride share owner operators are very heavy
into EVs and so I think when the economics

make sense there's really no stopping it.

Yeah, I think you just brought up a lot of
great points on that one kind of

conversation right there, Walter.

w what's really fascinating is you, you
quoted, not just Bloomberg, but also Cox

automotive.

And, I actually used to do some work with
auto line daily.

And one of the things we used to talk with
are some of the people there at, both Cox

and, Bloomberg.

And what was so funny was you just wind
the clock back maybe two or let alone like

three years ago.

And the numbers that they had for EV
growth was like super, I guess you could

just say pessimistic.

And it seems like every quarter, a lot of
these groups, even with maybe they've

changed it a little bit, but it's like
every year.

And then you look at it quarterly, that
number that they're predicting the future

growth to be has actually increased.

It's like, you go back a few years, like,
we see this maybe being 20%.

And now you go like two years back and
like, well, maybe we see it being 30%.

Like, well, yeah, probably by 2030, it's
going to be 40%.

And so there's kind of this, bizarre,
hindsight is 2020 obviously, but it is

just really interesting to show that, a
lot of the people that I think have kind

of pushed back on the narrative and said
that there isn't a need, even the more

conservative outlier, can outlets out
there or have been slowly revamping their

long -term numbers in a positive
direction.

And even though sometimes we'll be seeing
the headlines from them, like, does this

quarter sales mean that this trend is
reversing?

It really is all around the idea that the
short -term noise doesn't really align

with what we're seeing as kind of, excuse
me, as a long -term signal, in the space

between buyers and, interest in electric
vehicles.

You're going to add something Walter.

a single prediction out there indicating a
decrease in EV growth that I know of.

There might be one out there, but I have
not seen it.

And I try to be objective in the outlets
that I review, but it's going to increase.

The only question is at what measure.

And that's really the art.

No, and I think that's a great clarifying
point because for a lot of them, I think

what we have seen is.

And this is I've seen misreported where
maybe some of these outlets have revised

what they think their growth number is
going to be a year over year.

So maybe they were saying it was going to
be 45 % and then they say 40 % and it's

still growth, but then it gets misreported
as, it looks like you've, these are losing

momentum and stuff like that.

And even then I've already seen between,
like January.

a similar thing.

I I'm trying to remember the outlet, but
they said, it's going to go down to 30%.

And they had been, previously saying it
was going to be 40 to 50 % growth.

And now they're back up to like 40%.

And I think, there's just so much, just
these kind of short -term blips that keep

popping up the news, whether it's some of
the, I guess I could say fear -mongering,

winter charging and the experience that
we're seeing, even in Chicago and a couple

areas this past winter.

And that just kind of gets all the noise.

And then people try to put that in these
models based on short -term data and

really start throwing off these numbers.

But I completely agree with you, Walter,
when you start looking at it longer term

and actually going to usually the actual
new source and people doing these reports,

the numbers are pretty convincing that
what has started is just going to

continue.

Worth remembering as well that these are
numbers that are without some of the major

players, right?

So, you know, Walter mentioned Toyota in
their kind of lackluster approach to EVs.

You've got, you know, GM, which has only
really been in with the Bolt EV, which

obviously left, but, you know, is coming
back with a bunch of others that are at

that affordable stage of the market.

You've got Honda coming in with the
Prologue.

A lot of Stellantis brands, you know, you
could list off another 10, 5, 10

manufacturers that haven't really been in
the game yet.

So even just by introducing them and
adding...

10, 20, 30 ,000.

units to the the cells then you start to
rack up even if we just kind of sell the

same number of the previous the Tesla or
even a few a few less then you start to

get all these other manufacturers piling
in and the numbers are just going to go up

and up by virtue of loyalists people who
treat the vehicle like an appliance

because it's a to be soccer run groceries
that kind of thing they just need

something to get from you know one place
to another and those models do the job for

them so while we as EV purists might say
peak charging is awful takes an

hour to go from zero to 50%, whatever it
is.

They don't care.

They're probably not gonna fast charge it.

It's for the grocery run, it's for local
duty, all these kinds of things that we

take for daily use just for granted.

And EV does the job.

So there's a big, big soft middle there to
just pile into and sell vehicles to people

who aren't on one end or the other of the
spectrum.

They're just there waiting for it to be
the right price.

the right range, whatever it takes for
their use case, they're not pro or anti

-EV, they just need it to be the right
vehicle or the right manufacturer.

I think that's a great point too.

And one of the things that I don't think
has been fully appreciated.

I think a lot of the conversation does
kind of go around the early adopter

mentality, but with exactly what you're
saying, not only just more options from

different brands, but more options at more
price points.

There's a lot of families that I've
probably been interested or just haven't

had EVs on their radar because it just
hasn't been in their price point.

But I think everyone thinks about the
early adopter.

And with so many people, really what is a
big starting point is replacing the second

car they have.

If they can replace that second car with
an around town EV and they start driving

that, they kind of start to realize a lot
of the perks and realize how useful that

that can be for their primary car.

And so maybe when they go to replace that
next time, and then that's where you kind

of see that snowball effect in the growth.

So, I completely agree with you.

I think having more people come to the
space with more EVs is really just going

to accelerate what we're already seeing.

And, the biggest thing has always just
been like, once one person gets one on the

block, then other people start telling,
okay, if Joe can do it, then maybe these

things are practical.

And once again, it's just like, you have
to have that daily exposure.

And I would kind of be curious for both of
you guys, what do you think, is there a

way that traditional auto OEMs could be
doing a better job of getting that

exposure?

Because I really do think it is that, that
it, there is that element of just kind of,

as they say, getting,

butts and seats and doing test drives and
maybe not even a test drive, but almost a

extended test drive where you have it for
a few days to a week.

Because I will say I did have a, I don't
want to name any names, but I had a very

subpar experience from a traditional OEM
dealership recently.

The salespeople were great, but the
interest, clearly their own personal

interest in EVs, let alone knowledge base
of it.

just made it clear that they wanted to
sell the other version that wasn't an EV.

And I'm kind of curious if there's been
any exposure or experiences you guys have

had that kind of helped maybe counteract
that or things that you think auto OEM

should be doing more to change that
perception buying experience for the

average consumer.

I think the experience in general is
twofold.

It obviously requires the salesperson and
the dealership to have some interest in

selling them in the first place.

I mean, they may get an allocation, but if
they're not charged, they're sitting

around the back of the lot, nobody knows
how to get in the vehicle and show you the

ins and outs of things like regenerative
braking, let you know the accelerator is

going to push you forward pretty quickly.

That kind of the ins and outs of electric
vehicles,

that need to be something that they start
to at least put on the table rather than

immediately starting with, you know, the
charging issues, the things that you can't

do with it.

So the dealership attitude is certainly
something right from the off.

And then I think there's some of the more
forward thinking OEMs are starting to

experiment with rentals, you know, short
term rentals at certain dealership or

shorter leases, low mileage leases for
exactly that kind of user that you're

talking about, the one with the second car
who maybe doesn't need to worry about it

for the long.

that kind of thing.

So it's a way of getting, you know, as we
always say, these ride and drive events,

bumps and seeds, get them experiencing it
in a very low risk, low kind of commitment

way.

So the,

They can get into the feeling of an EV,
how easy it is potentially to plug in at

home, to do their weekly mileage with an
electric drivetrain, but still have the

knowledge that they can get out of the
lease if they want to.

They just need to get over that hump
initially of, will it work for me, as you

say, and if you can start to give them
options that are very short, low mileage,

not too high cost, and affordable models
that suit their needs.

I think you're already halfway there.

Yeah, and I would like to add the
advantage that we're facing in 2024 for

what you're describing.

And I'm kind of curious, Chase, where do
you, like, where did you have that

experience?

What part of the country?

West a small city along I5 on the west
coast.

I'll leave it at that.

Yeah

strange.

You would have thought that you'd be the
option would have been high enough there

that the interest would have been
different.

I just perceived it differently out there.

it is definitely a smaller, very
beautiful, more rural city, but I think it

was, I don't want to say eye opening or
surprising, but it was really interesting

to hear and see the, the actual sales
experience and positioning of the EV.

and I mean, they first just came out like,
well, why would you get it?

Can't tell anything.

And, I, one, I didn't really try to push
back.

I just wanted to see what they kind of
came at me with and what, what they

started saying.

and it just was really interesting where
they started with.

And like when I even started to push back,
they're just like, why don't you just get

the gas version?

And it, I don't know.

I'm, still cautiously optimistic, but I do
think that that is a big challenge.

even if you're still seeing that from
dealerships, I don't know if this, I know

some of these, OEMs are.

trying to make certain dealerships more EV
focused or EV partners, if you will, with

their brand than others.

And I'm not sure if this one was one,
probably not for multiple reasons, but

even then I would say the sales experience
compared to some of the other dealerships

I experienced as I've had in the past was
overall positive.

The person was nice.

They weren't too pushy, but it was just
clear that they had no interest in the EV

side of stuff.

And it was unfortunate to kind of be
reminded of this.

and it's kind of the first time I'd seen
this in a while.

once again, maybe it is the outlier, but,
it just was one of those things that I

think still a pretty big challenge.

And if we're seeing this on the West coast
and I think it's going to be just

something nationally that, and I think
obviously, from a country standpoint,

we're probably.

looking at, like you look at Europe and
abroad, I don't think it's nearly as big

an issue.

And I think some of that may be the truck
culture and other things, but, it was just

really fascinating to me that they just
had no interest in it pretty quickly or

like, yeah, it's a cool toy.

and they were trying to reposition the
conversation pretty quickly to a different

product.

That is interesting.

I went on a road trip into coal country,
which is Eastern Kentucky and West

Virginia.

And I did stop at a dealership because
it's one of the few places that had a

level two charger anywhere.

There's like no chargers whatsoever.

And so I tried to use it, but it was
broken.

I went in and I was talking to them and it
was obvious there was a palatable light,

you know, please take your EV and go
somewhere else mentality.

But that's coal country, which is a little
bit different.

I would have thought in the West Coast.

But in 2024, one thing we have going for
us is as

A salesperson is walking a floor knowing
they've got the $7 ,500 tax credit in

their pocket where they could show someone
a sticker price, let them sit in the car,

and then hit them with a $7 ,500 discount
is a pretty powerful sales tool in the

tool chest.

And I would think, you know, just for pure
sick.

I don't think it is.

I think they look at it as, or at least
this is my experience.

And I've kind of wondered if this would be
the case.

they look at it as just one more hurdle to
try and kind of have the conversation

like, okay, now I have to talk to about
charging now have to talk about even

incentives if they qualify or if they do
leasing or all this stuff.

To me, it just became clear, like, this is
just making the sales process more

complicated, good or bad.

you're that way.

totally agree with what you're saying,
Walter.

It should be looked at as actually, an
advantage, but it was just really

interesting experience.

and I was looking at the sticker.

I'm like, all right, here's how the script
is going to go.

They'll sit down, they'll look at the
sticker, they'll sit down and then I'll

say, well, you get $70 ,000 and then go to
paperwork.

It'd be something that you have in the EV
that you don't have in the other cars.

I think it's worth contrasting as well
with, you know, there is not a small

gorilla in the room with Tesla's method of
delivery and looking at direct sales.

Obviously that's limited in some places.

They are headquartered in Texas, but can't
even sell that directly, you know, but

there are more and more of these coming up
with your Lucid, Rivian, Polestar even.

If you start to go to some of these
spaces, I think you feel it's a different

environment in which to consider an
electric vehicle.

to some extent with the dealerships you're
at the mercy of exactly what you say

Chase, it's the individual in charge or
the salesperson who's managing the team

interested in electric vehicles.

If they are, you get some very, very good
dealerships.

There are some great places who have
really tried to make initiatives with

charging parks, cafes were next to the
charges that they serve during the day, EV

own the events, a lot of different
initiatives that just fall under the

bucket of marketing the vehicles.

But if you're

If you find a dealership that is of the
mindset they're being forced to sell these

things, I think that's where it switches
into exactly what you're talking about.

The incentive is just another piece of
paperwork to do.

They have to explain a different form of
fuelling.

It's more work than it's worth.

But they've got the sword of Damocles
hanging over them that is, if that starts

to really get close, then they have direct
sales, EVO only makers, and a lot of other

competitive threats that it would be
better to start at least

for and figure out how to sell these
things now before it's critical time.

Otherwise, further down the line, it's
going to be a long, big hill to climb to

get back to just even status quo.

For sure.

And there definitely are some other
charging topics I want to talk to you guys

about, but, just, it kind of reminded me
of this recent experience.

And, I, I was surprised by, I kind of
figured it would come up, but I didn't

expect it to come up so quickly.

And, with multiple salespeople, they were
just like, they were, they were all

actually really nice.

but they're just like, why would you waste
your time with those things?

Those are toys.

Let's, and then they showed the other
trucks and all this other.

vehicles they have.

And when I asked him about the discount,
they're like, well, that one doesn't

count.

And this one does.

And it's so hard to keep track of which
one qualifies for what, which I kind of

also get, but, isn't doing many favors and
moving EVs.

And the thing I wanted to ask you to see
is cause you have the ionic five right

now.

You look at Hyundai and Kia, they are
brands that were growing, but seem to have

really taken a large.

a spike in growth with their electric
vehicle, approach in product and sales.

And so I kind of am curious with your
experience, was it much more, they were

more open to it because they, you really
weren't competing against another vehicle

that they offer.

Whereas I think in my experience, they're
like, well, we got the diesel version, we

got the gas version and that electric
thing, who knows, whatever.

And I feel like that almost was kind of
causing some internal confusion and like,

combativeness against the models versus
maybe I just be a little real quickly here

your experience of it was much more
different or much different.

It would have been perhaps interesting if
I was shopping the Kona because that has a

direct, you know, plug -in hybrid and a...

pure gas version, but shopping the IONIQ
5.

I think Hyundai corporately and Kia as
well have put a big push behind them to

let people, the dealerships know that they
want to sell these and they've created

products that are mostly unique.

I haven't noticed any particularly
positive dealership stories with Hyundai

or Kia to be honest, more so with Hyundai
on the ownership boards, but they

generally seem to be the weakest link of
the sales process, but they haven't also

had very many horrors to

than the initial markups and what you get
with every EV pretty much when it's in

limited supply.

But I haven't seen the dealerships as
either a big plus in trying to sell them

or an impediment in trying to steer me
away to anything else.

Yeah.

And Walter, I know, with your experience,
was it mostly when you were, you kind of

ordered it, reserved it online, and then
essentially took delivery of it at the

dealership or did you have more,
engagement with taking delivery of your

car at the dealership?

of those, no.

Really my wife and my household makes most
of the purchasing decisions for large

ticket items like that and she wanted a
Tesla Model 3.

She got herself one.

I was driving it around for a while and
slowly I started to be like, well what's

this electric car thing like?

You know, we had the charger installed in
the garage and she was enjoying it.

You know, it looked like a nice car.

You know, you hear about Teslas, it's like
a sexy new toy as you say.

And ooh, I want to try, you know, put on
my Ray -Bans and go cruise around in the

Tesla.

Slowly though, I started to realize this
thing don't break down.

It has no oil changes and it's more
reliable.

We got a nice tax break.

This was 2019, I forgot what the tax code
was back then, but we got a nice tax

break.

We had to change the tires once and fill
it with windshield washer fluid, but that

was about it.

After that, the next car we added, we put
in a Volvo XC40 Recharge, which is kind

like a...

crossover SUV, I think is a way of
describing it, a little mid -size SUV.

And so we had the Model 3 and the Volvo
XC40 Recharge, as well as a Hyundai Ioniq,

not an Ioniq 5, just the hybrid Ioniq,
which was what my son was using prior to

going to college.

We sold that and we also got a Cadillac
Lyric trading in the Tesla Model 3.

The Model 3 is kind of a low car.

I don't know if anyone's been in it and
driven it as a daily driver.

It's kind of a low car.

Me and my wife are both in our 50s.

So we're like, eh, so when you sit in a
Cadillac, it's a super comfortable cream

puff.

So we traded in three for a Lyric and got
a, again, a big tax discount.

And it wasn't horribly expensive.

It wasn't like a Tesla Model X, but it's
in the same sort of class, I would say, as

a Model X.

It's kind of a luxury large SUV, not a
three row SUV, but it's a large SUV.

And...

Again, no breakdowns.

You don't do anything to them.

It's like a dream come true.

It's like the most reliable Mercedes from
the 90s on steroids.

That's just ridiculously reliable.

You can charge it in your garage.

I don't go to gas stations anymore.

And really that was what has been the
evolution for me, being utterly convinced

that not only is it...

Beneficial personally, from a national
standpoint, sourcing the fuel for the

transportation from domestically produced
energy is strategically in the best

interest of the country.

I think that's one of the reasons why
China is so ferociously starting to adopt

EVs and encouraging them just because they
could be energy independent.

interesting you mentioned that trip to
coal country because if anything you know

the generating electricity from coal could
actually you know save some of these areas

because you could actually have a coal
powered EV at that point but that is a

meme and a trope that is pretty much dying
out as far as coal production goes now.

Yeah, my house is nuclear.

I don't know if that's good or bad, but it
is what it is.

yeah, being on the West coast, we have a
lot of hydro and that has its own pros and

cons.

Yeah, that's kind of interesting.

You talk about your trip through cool
country because I've drawn, I drive

through, I've done a lot of road trips
through Wyoming and, there it's kind of

the same deal where large coal mines and,
the actual coal facilities.

And there's definitely, I don't know.

I w I was kind of surprised.

how they didn't really cast off EVs in my
experience with meeting people there.

I didn't go to any of the dealerships,
maybe that'd be different, but it

definitely did seem to be kind of more of
an openness and interest in it than I had

been expecting.

I think that's almost why I was so
surprised of my recent dealership

experience.

Not being like negative per se, but not
just being open to like, okay, this is a

buyer that's interested in it.

Why don't I just move forward and make
this happen instead of trying to go down a

different path.

But.

with that, one of the, let's, let's change
topics a little bit.

I guess go to the actual charging side of
stuff.

And I know, it's, it was really
interesting on our last conversation

talking with you guys about your
experience with kind of DC fast charging

on the East coast versus kind of what
being really in the center of Oregon.

So kind of in a pretty rural area, just
the, evolution and the addition of EV

public EV chargers.

There was a large announcement.

I know it seems like you've been following
it pretty closely, Walter and Steve about

kind of flying Jay and some of the stuff
with, GM and their, I believe, EV go kind

of have like a partnership for rolling
out.

And it seems like they've kind of cut that
back from everything I can see here in

Oregon, unfortunately.

but I, I'm just kind of curious if you
guys have seen any new developments or,

and I know kind of the other big thing
that happened a few months ago or.

Probably not even that long a couple of
months ago was the big kind of

announcements from Tesla kind of pulling
back on their charging team a bit, but

kind of just curious to hear regionally
what your experience has been lately.

just cause I had to use a public charger
the other day and, it's a CPO I've,

charging provider that I consistently have
been underwhelmed with.

And I just, fortunately I didn't need a
charge.

but I decided, you know what, this is a
pretty.

Heavily invested one.

this it's not, I actually have no problem
saying it's EVCS and it's essentially part

of the West coast electric highway
program.

So they put a bunch of them all up and
down Oregon, California and Washington.

And it was a terrible experience.

I'll leave it at that.

but I, I just be curious.

It seems like you guys have been seeing a
lot more kind of development with the

public fast charters on the East coast and
kind of Midwest area and just continued

growth.

And I don't know if it.

Seems to be like it's coming east to west
with some of these projects, but I just be

curious to hear what experience you guys
have been having with just your own

personal charging and then other maybe
just stories of note in the space that I

think we could share with our listeners.

I think I...

I have a lot of experience with Electrify
America and some of the early programs, so

EVGO and the CCS networks that
proliferated and Walter has definitely

stepped in with a lot of coverage from the
kind of ground zero of your, as you say,

Pilot Flying Jays, your Buc -E's and
Mercedes, Fast Charging, Walmart getting

into it.

So I can set a stage perhaps for where
we've come from and how it started.

And I think Walter is just the king of
weekly.

on all of these new networks that are
expanding out of his area and into yours,

Chase to an extent, certainly into mine.

But going back to the initial kind of
areas with Electrify America, which

started up in my area, Central
Massachusetts around 2018, they obviously

carried the can in the last year or two
for the poster child of public.

charging unreliability, not being able to
get a charge, half of the site being down,

that kind of thing.

I think it was fair to an extent that you
could certainly say a lot of their older

equipment had problems.

They've acknowledged that themselves and
the West Coast seems to have been a

particular pain point.

Growing out in the last year, 18 months
maybe now, they've upgraded to the latest

generation hardware with mostly BTC power
and signet stations, which are kind of

visible via this black siding and cladding
and then a diagonal top, but most notably

they only have one port.

I've found personally, and having been
kind of gravitate towards them because I

have a free charging plan that ends in
about six months time with the IONIQ 5

that kind of keeps me on Electrify America
to an extent.

They've been much better in the last,
certainly since they ripped and replaced a

lot of those locations.

They've been, I really haven't had any
problems.

I can't remember the last time I could not
charge with Electrify America.

EBGO has been kind of hampered to an
extent with these older sites.

They've had the same issue of older
hardware that they put in perhaps even

before 2018, a lot of 50 kilowatt, 100
kilowatts.

So by today's standards, you know, if
you're looking at 200, 300 kilowatt

charging, they are antiquated units that
have been in the ground for...

almost a decade now, so a lot of those,
they're having the same kind of thing,

although not on such a nationwide scale as
Electrify America.

So they have improved as well.

You've got a lot of the NEVI funding,
which maybe we'll get onto as a national

federally funded program, is using these
combination EVGO and Pilot Flying J

locations, which have 350 kilowatt
hardware, you know, pretty much rock solid

as far as I've seen, maybe one outage in
six to nine months of the NEVI program

being around.

But it's a

those two players that kind of formed it,
you know, and actually are a viable

nationwide network perhaps, are probably
the most, you know, long -standing

standard bearers and they both seem to be
getting their act together compared to

maybe two years ago when everything was
getting, you know, negative headlines, but

that kind of bleeds into...

The East Coast has certainly been positive
for me.

I do a lot of trips over to Ohio, so
Midwest connecting Northeast has always

been fairly good for me, but Walter is
seeing that kind of, those new networks

branch out of his area and can speak
pretty authoritatively to what's coming

and how far they've got so far.

.

Yeah, and I could kind of venture off, but
I'm going to try to stay focused on the

question that was asked.

But the one that I've seen recently, like
just today, was VW Dieselgate funds

disbursement for state run locations.

There's a lot of blank spots in the map
that are getting filled in, at least in

the state of North Carolina for that.

Just recently, two new stations opened in
kind of an underserved area.

And so those funds are still getting
dispersed.

So there's Dieselgate funds getting
dispersed.

There's

the large pool of NEBI funds getting ready
to be dispersed.

And I'm sorry, not to cut you off.

When you say diesel gate funds, it's not
necessarily that they're electrify America

sites, but they are sites.

Yeah.

Just to clarify for a list.

Yeah.

disbursements for local independent CPOs
getting built and lots of times those will

be CPE 250s that have wrapping on them
indicating that there was a joint

partnership with the state or whatever and
those are very common in my area and

there's been additional building of those
in underserved areas along alternative

fuel corridors through the state of North
Carolina as of late.

So that's still going on.

But really the big

is the C -Store space, the convenience
store space, where as a C -Store operator,

if you look to see that you could have a
higher dwell time of your customers, and

you could also have your fuel delivered
near the theoretical speed of light and

not have to have liquid form trucked into
a store in tanks, it just makes business

sense to sink a little more upfront costs
into electric vehicle charging

infrastructure and then let your customers
decide if they're going to use them or

not.

And I think there's a lot of

store operators experimenting with that
concept.

You mentioned Pilot Flying J.

Not slow down.

I don't know.

So you mentioned slow down.

That's not what I'm seeing.

In fact, I just saw another new site
today.

I'm up to 41 sites that are now under
construction with 38 sites open.

And their goal is 200 by the end of the
year.

And I'm starting to think they might make
it.

So if they finish what they have now on
their plate, they'll be up to 80.

And every day I turn around, there's
additional sites getting spotted as under.

so that's definitely in full swing and as
you mentioned is the joint partnership

between General Motors, Pilot Flying J
which is at Berkshire Hathaway Company, as

well as EVgo so it's a triple partnership.

But really it's the C stores, the Circle
K's, the 7 -Elevens, the Quick Trips, the

BP's, the Shell's stations, all those
locations that are looking at advantageous

customer dwell times and the ease of
delivering the fuel to the vehicles, in my

opinion is the big sea change that I'm
seeing.

There's another one regional out here
called Racetrack.

Them as well are, they just open multiple
locations throughout the Dallas -Fort

Worth area.

area and the build continues.

That's crazy.

I'm kind of curious where you go to for
information, new location specifically

with it.

Cause the reason I bring up, the ones in
Oregon was just two weeks ago, I had

looked on the map that had showed where
there were potential ones and where there

were going to be ones in Oregon.

And now they're showing is all potential.

And I understood that.

And I've kind of checked you in on a
couple other places that it's maybe not

happening or it's like still like it's
being pushed out.

And so I'm, I'm just kind of curious.

Where you usually go to find kind of
confirmation like, cause I'm using the map

that's based.

I believe that was GM site.

It could have been pilots.

and now they're showing them as optional
or like potential ones versus it was going

to be mostly potential, like a few for
sure.

And now it's just showing like maybe.

Yeah, so if it was,

kind of dark gray with purple pin drops.

That's the Pilot Flying J map.

And that is updated, reflecting ones that
are expected to be in service by the end

of 24.

And the count is 200.

Their goal is 500 in total.

So it's kind of on track.

It depends on which map you look at.

Some maps show like kind of like the
proposed phase one, but the one map that I

think you're referring to is the end of
2024 map off the Pilot Flying J website.

And there's 200 in there.

And as you say, it's proposed location.

So there's some variability in whether or
not those are actually going to occur.

that maybe it's moved back because they
might not there still might move forward

with them just not in 2024.

Because the one I'd seen earlier in the
year showed that there was gonna be like

three and now it's like proposed and I'd
love to see more.

So that that that's good.

Yeah.

41 that I'm currently tracking under
construction and every day there's new

ones popping up.

So they're spending cash.

there any States or kind of hubs or areas
that you're seeing them take off more than

others, or are you seeing kind of it?

Like I said, when I looked at the map
last, it looked like it was almost going

east to west.

And I'm just kind of curious.

There might've been like some in
California, like Southern California, like

in Seattle.

but I'm just kind of curious if you're
seeing pockets or stern States where

they're really being built first.

There's a little bit of tea leaf reading,
but from what I'm gathering, they seem to

be watching who is announcing NEBI funds.

And when a state announces, they either
pause to receive the NEBI funds or if they

weren't awarded any, they proceed with
their private bill.

So they're kind of like waiting,
staggering up, waiting for those NEBI

funds to be released.

And in the state of Ohio, they had many
round one awards and they they're built.

They are under construction and almost
done.

So basically they're track.

They seem to be tracking NEBI
announcements.

That's great.

Yeah, I know you had some thoughts you
wanted to share on the Nevi funding side

of stuff, Steve, and just seeing how
that's been rolled out.

I know on LinkedIn, I've seen a couple of
your posts around both good and bad with

your thoughts on that.

So I think that'd be great to share here.

Yeah, I mean, I think if anybody wants the
actual numbers and you know who's awarded

what and which states are leading or which
CPOs are leading, Lauren MacDonald at EV

adoption is the place to go.

He's got the policy side down and who's
winning what.

So there's always good rankings coming
from that.

I think, you know, most notably is kind of
as Walter pointed out, you know, I've,

I've focused on the construction side and
then the reliability of stations, which

are in the ground, which is easy at the
moment because there are only eight of

them.

So it's pretty easy to track, but as
Walter kind of hinted there, you know,

there's a, I think Pilot Flying J and EVGO
in that partnership won about 20, 22,

something like that.

Stations in the round one funding and
about half of those now are, one of them

is open, but about, you know,

are about to come online.

So we're really going to start to get this
tsunami of activations in the states that

led the way with wards.

But that's kind of the next wave of
activations because you're seeing, as

Walter mentioned, a lot of chains like the
Loves, the Travel Centers of America.

I lose track of the number of names, but a
lot of these are applying and because

they're supposed to be travel networks and
they're supposed to be within one mile of

an interstate, you really winnow down
pretty quickly what's within that one mile

of an interstate exit, right?

There's travel, you know, truck stops,
travel centers, maybe surface plazas and

the occasional mom and pop store.

But for the most part, this is these big
national chains that are starting to open

these things.

So we're seeing a lot of the activations
happen here in the Northeast, which has

helped me keep track

of it you know I was able to go up to the
Tesla, the first Tesla federally funded

site in Maine which is in a really strange
little area kind of not really near an

interstate but off on the way to Acadia
National Park.

So you're seeing some kind of leading tech
almost you know because it's the first

Tesla V4 post that has a touchscreen on it
first that you can activate with a card

whereas previously you'd have just plug in
and you know because that's Tesla's closed

ecosystem you know working in lockstep but
now they've got all these new

requirements.

So you're starting to see the money flow
to your Teslas, your Pilot Flying Jays,

and one of the biggest names that I don't
really have a lot of kind of experience

with because they're in Midwest, kind of
Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, that kind of

area provider is Francis Energy, who I
think just became the leading number of

awards, at least certainly they won the
most funding from the National Electric

Vehicle Infrastructure funding.

And that's going to be really interesting
because I don't hear great things about

that.

to be honest.

Our viewers on the Coast to Coast TV's
podcast have, you know, maybe it's using

old equipment, old kind of dated
references, but they have a lot of skin in

the game for this Nefi funding and they
are now kind of leading even beyond Tesla

and you kind of hinted at the layoffs at
Tesla.

If they're going to take up the mantle,
they're going to have a lot of pressure on

their shoulders to really deliver for the
number of sites and the amount of money

that they're taking in.

Yeah, I think that's kind of a good thing
you brought up.

Actually, there's quite a few different
things you brought up.

I think that's interesting around you said
the Tesla one's kind of near a national

park, correct?

Or?

Yeah, it's I mean they're supposed to be
these initial rounds are on alternative

fuel corridors So there's you know, every
state has a certain amount of designated

mileage on these corridors and one of them
from Maine aside from the big I -95 route

up to Canada is I think it's Route 1 along
the coast kind of coastal main from the

Portland area and then across to Acadia
National Park so big tourist route There's

a lot of cute little coastal main towns
lighthouses all the stuff you associate

with a good main trip But this is a nice
little town kind of a harbor

and

Tesla just, for whatever reason, that was
the first site they managed to get in the

ground and was activated, I think, in
April.

But it's interesting that that has kind of
pushed them to develop a new piece of the

puzzle, right?

Because they now need to, you know, and
all the other things that we could talk

about with public access for
superchargers.

This is something that has been to receive
those federal funds.

They had to have different kind of payment
reader, the ability to display the, you

know, cost per charge and have basic
charging information displayed that would

normally be pushed to the

because that's you know all designed in
Harris so it's starting to make that force

even Tesla to make that transition to as
much of a public charging provider as they

wish to be.

Yeah.

And I think that's definitely, that could
be unto itself, its own podcast, just kind

of like the app experience versus, I mean,
that was kind of what I reiterated.

I even think tweeted or whatever you call
it now on a Twitter X whatever.

the other day after I had my bad
experiences, like for EV's to really take

up, it's gotta be just as easy as filling
up with gas.

If not easier from a payment standpoint.

And I had a download two apps, put my
credit card in three times.

Apple pay doesn't work even though it has
an Apple pay option.

And just like, I cannot think of literally
just such a bad experience.

And so I think that's great to see, like
you just need sometimes if you want to

take the next level with kind of an app
augmentation or kind of a software layer,

great.

But, for, I think all these different
technologies that take off, they just have

to work and the simplicity around just
having a payment terminal and, ideally in

a good world, it'd have like a plug and
charge.

sort of situation where it's even simpler
than gas.

You just plug in and walk away.

Don't even think about it.

I think that that makes the charging
process, you know, when you talk about it,

futzing around and spending three or four
minutes to get it working.

If you can just do that plug and charge
and that becomes the standard, then it

does take advantage over gas.

You're not doing the card reader potential
for skimming your data, you know, all that

kind of stuff.

It cuts out.

And as long as it works, you can do
exactly what Tesla owners do walk away to

the store.

passive kind of activity where the car
charges whilst you do your stuff and then

it starts to become a you know additive
bonus because when you're fueling you're

just fueling right that you've got to
stand there you've got to hold the pump

you've got to unless someone's there to do
it for you like New Jersey or a few of

those handful of states but for the most
part you can go and do your other stuff

while you're charging come back to the
charge car and be on your way again.

No, I mean, I, it saves, it seems simple,
but it saves so much time on a road trip.

If you're doing like back to back ones,
just do plug them, walk away, go use the

bathroom, get back in the car and go
again.

but yeah, that, not to do, I mean, I, I
get it.

The experience I had is rare, but it's
just like, this is so unacceptable in

2024.

where, yeah, it had a card reader and the
career doesn't even work.

And I had to even find out like through
just double checking and plug share that

was like,

Coming soon, payment terminal
functionality.

And that was, I believe, from the CPO back
in like early 2023.

And clearly it just never came, even
though it has the terminal right there.

And so I think just hearing all these
stories.

up EVCS with Eric because I'm sure he's
got war stories from them as well.

look forward to it and I want to
commiserate with them because yeah, it's

just, it's unfortunate because, they've
got so many great sites that were funded

by the state of Oregon to upgrade.

And in my experience so far has been a
missed opportunity, but, going back to

kind of the rollout of the larger sites.

I mean, what are you guys seeing as far as
kind of like the ideal layout?

I realized we're kind of coming up short
on time here.

So I just wanted to kind of figure out.

just on the last thing on the Nevi
funding, like, do you want to see, cause I

think so many of these like early public
fast charging installations, they might

only be like four, maybe even up to six.

And it really does seem like to make this
model work.

And you're starting to even see it at
Bucky's and these other ones where they

are doing also the very large charging,
look, stall locations and stuff like that.

And I just be curious to kind of hear what
your guys thoughts on our, like what the

ideal, if we're going to give.

the NEVI funding to these locations.

Like what should be the ideal minimum
size, like minimum power?

I know it's stated, but like, it's just
been interesting to me what has been

chosen versus what I think is kind of the
more ideal and future -proofed solution

for these sites.

I can go first.

I think there's two school of thoughts and
I might just be speculating, but I think

there's two school of thoughts.

One is the longevity of the host and their
viability long -term economically, whether

or not they're going to be closing.

So you want to gravitate more towards like
community colleges or government

institutions that will be around for a
very long time, but that might not be in

convenient locations or expediency, which
are the convenience stores immediately off

the interstates.

Those are kind of the two main areas.

that I seem to be focused on.

And my personal opinion is the C -Store is
right off the interstate, but real estate

is pretty good.

And as long as it doesn't get overly
expensive for taxes, the charging stations

themselves will help sustain the business
model of the C -Store.

So in my opinion, those are the nicest
where you don't have to walk a long way to

an anchor mall in order to go to a food
court.

It's just, you know, 10 steps away where
you go inside and you have the facilities.

You can get yourself a Slurpee or whatever
you want.

So my personal opinion is the C -Store is
immediately off the interstate for road

trips.

inside urban areas or for people in multi
-tenant dwellings, seat stores or grocery

stores.

Yeah, I think what we're seeing with Nevi
is just the minimum being complied, you

know, to get the money because Walter kind
of pointed out they are looking, a lot of

these players are looking to get a foot in
the water.

They're not trying to build out a massive
charging hub as Tesla's had to do at some

locations because they have the sheer
volume and demand for it.

They're just trying to add on those four
ports, which are the requirement, the

minimum 150 kilowatts, although a lot of
them do go higher in various

configurations.

and get those in the ground.

So they start to gather data, they get
some federal funding for it, they start to

offset some of those early, you know, very
high capex costs that come with installing

EV infrastructure.

and just build from there.

But I think in terms of the ideal charging
station, Walter kind of hit on it in that

you really need to match it to the dual
time of location.

You know, if I have a gas station which
already has a canopy and a lot of the

creature comforts of a road trip, like
your squeegees, your trash cans, stuff

that we take for granted as travelers, you
have to have those for the electric

vehicle traveler as well.

You need those as part of the makeup.

It's a bizarre thing to have some big
piece of construction and then kind of

forgo.

or some of the basic amenities.

When you get to a town centre and some of
those other locations, if things are

walkable, then maybe a lower power is
fine.

Maybe you just need a bunch of lower power
equipment that you can install and that

may be a benefit for the town and the kind
of people and businesses that are looking

to benefit from this investment because
then people do walk around the town, start

to frequent the local businesses and use
the facilities that are around them.

So I think it varies from place to place.

Some places you may want the kind of
Electrify America charging hub that you

have in downtown San Francisco with
lounges and facilities and 20 chargers in

places like the middle of Wyoming where
you'd be in chase.

I doubt you would want, I mean, you may
want one, but probably not going to get

one anytime soon.

No.

And I think what Walter says is pretty
spot on.

you, you want something that has the right
facility or the right, amenities, but at

the same time, like, yeah, that is kind of
where, like you're saying a two 50, three

50, like something higher power.

So it's like 15 minutes.

Usually kind of bathroom break, get a
water or whatever, and you've got enough

charge to kind of get on your way for
another couple hours.

Whereas like one 50.

Even though it's still a decent amount of
power can actually start having like a

pretty big, Delta and how much time you
might be sitting there to charge.

And then it becomes kind of a different
thing.

If you're at a mall or a city center, like
you're saying where it's like, okay, it's

lower power, but I can go do something a
bit more than hanging out at a gas station

or a convenience store.

But what were you going to say, Walter?

I was going to say another thing I'm
hearing with some frequency is the safety

issue and lighting and having a staff
member at a convenience store is

beneficial because being alone in a mall
parking lot at night is not something that

is conducive to feeling safe for other EV
drivers.

Myself, I'm kind of the scary person so I
don't worry about that.

Other people apparently are, I'm hearing
that more and more that the convenience

stores generally are sought after.

because there's a staff member on site and
the safety issue and the lighting and

everything.

No, I think that's a great call.

And like kind of the evil turn that we've
seen is like what Steve was talking about,

like the electrify America, one in San
Francisco where it is gated off.

There's other stuff there.

And so it is more secure, but the, and
you, you see actually more of these in

Europe.

And I think kind of like the Mercedes bins
one they did domestically, but obviously

then the expenditures of that and that
investment goes way up.

And so I think you're totally right that
there's a pretty good overlap.

There's already so much of the
infrastructure and kind of safety elements

built in with the traditional C stores
that it just makes sense to have more EV

chargers there.

And I realized we're kind of coming up on
our time here and I want to be respectful.

I know Steve, you wanted to kind of talk a
little bit about nursery charging.

So maybe we can just talk about that for
like the last couple of minutes and kind

of share some of your thoughts on what
your experience with that has been before

we sign off here.

I'm sure you might be jumping into another
podcast with.

know yeah, maybe let's let's maybe start
with and think of it as more of a teaser

for the next episode But I just want to
make sure we cover it with the time

well, I know I visited the.

Gravity charging hub, which is one of the
big kind of headline 500 kilowatts for

whatever the technology behind that is,
that's open to debate.

But, you know, the idea of having 20, 30
charges in the center of downtown

Manhattan that can fill a car in 15, 20
minutes is an interesting one and called a

lot of headlines.

But I found myself thinking more and more,
you know, we had we spoke to the co

-founder of its electric, one of the
curbside charging solutions, which is

purely level two.

And there's a lot of these vault posts in
New York City you have.

flow installing very high utilization.

curbside charging and to me you know the
experience was fine at the Gravity Center

but I was that was a dedicated activity I
had to do I mean I filmed a video but I

went there to do that and to check it out
but I wasn't able to go and take advantage

of any of the things in Midtown Manhattan
because I needed to be back to my car

because it was faster whereas if I'd have
been able to plug in you know on a level 2

you're kind of 7 -8 kilowatts it charges
perfectly reasonably I'm probably gonna

enjoy downtown Manhattan for four or five
six hours and then I'm going to on

way with much the same amount of energy as
I left with with the dedicated fast

charging stop and probably install a lot
more of those curbside chargers for the

money that it costs to build a charging
hub.

So I think there's value in having both
obviously as a ride share driver or maybe

a commercial fleet driver you need to have
that quick charging stop time is money and

you need to be on your way but as a
visitor and maybe a local business I'm

just thinking more and more that we can't
or really shouldn't overlook that level

two charging it's a valuable piece of the
puzzle that

those solutions that I mentioned are going
to be a big part of, I think.

Yeah, I can agree more in that.

I think there's a lot of really
interesting level two DC charging options

that are kind of starting to hit the
market now that are kind of the right

balance and actually bring down costs even
further, especially if you are like a

parking garage or a large building where
you actually probably have easier access

to DC.

And you can kind of tap into them and have
a large scale facility and have more DC.

It's not going to be 350 kilowatts, but
even if it's anywhere from like 10 to 20,

that's still like plenty and makes a lot
more scalable and easier for those kinds

of experiences.

Cause yeah, I think you're totally right
with the investment and also just like

being able to be more efficient with the
time.

of leveraging level two charging when you
are in a place like Manhattan or somewhere

else.

And it's not that you need a fast charge.

You just need a consistent charge
reliably.

and go into the exactly.

And, and I think that's also, I think we
talked about this on our previous episode

too, where it's like the importance of
having commercial specific charging only.

If you're going to be an Uber, you're
going to be someone there needs to be.

an option that kind of makes it so that's
where they go instead of always having to

go to the public chargers and then maybe
people who are on their trips, taking up a

stall and running the issues.

Like we saw this past winter.

I, I do realize we're kind of up for time
and I, and I just want to say thank you

both.

I know Walter we've gone over.

So Walter, Steve, thank you so much.

We'll have to have you guys on again soon
and, really enjoyed this conversation

today.

Thanks, Chase Good night.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to this episode of
the grid connections podcast.

We hope you enjoyed our conversation with
Steve briquette founder of plug and play

EV and Walter Schulze, the host of the
network architect channel.

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