sound better.

But to kick it off, I'll just kind of do a
little mock one and then hand it to you

for an overview to introduce yourself just
in case anyone hasn't heard us.

So with that...

Looks like we are all good.

Okay, cool.

Good afternoon.

Great connections listeners.

I'm excited to be speaking with Lew Cox
today.

I know we've had him on a previous
episode, but I feel like even though it's

only been a few months since we had you
last on, there's been so much that has

happened in the space, good and bad.

But I think it's been really cool
following some of the really great

products that your team has been
launching.

In addition to everything else going on
that we're talking about today.

So I'm really excited to have you back,
but just in case anyone's not familiar,

Lew, can you give a...

little information about yourself and what
your team does.

Absolutely, Chase.

It's a pleasure to be back on Grid
Connections.

The last time we had a discussion, I think
we really got into the nitty gritty about

some of the benefits that not only our
products provide, but a lot of the

companies in this space are working on.

Just for those who are new to who I am and
who X -Charge is, I'm Lew Cox.

I am the Senior Director of Business
Development for X -Charge here in North

America.

And X -Charge is an EV charging OEM where
we design...

and manufacture DC fast charging products
kind of across the gambit, including some

products that have integrated bi
-directional batteries.

We really thought that there and still do
believe that there is a space currently

for very grid constrained areas and
providing infrastructure for them to

provide DC fast charging.

I think if EV adoption is going to go
where we all want it to go collectively,

we have to attack all of the issues kind
of at the same time and that...

that doesn't involve leaving behind those
areas that are maybe a little bit more

difficult to attack.

So batteries help us get that done.

Yeah, I think that's what I've really
enjoyed about, even our last conversation

and my apologies to anyone listening, if
they hear a dog panting, that's a dog I'm

currently watching.

But, yeah, I think our last conversation,
we just barely scratched the surface on

this topic specifically, and really talked
about the state of like EV charging and a

lot of, we're seeing in that space.

And I think that's what I love about why
you start this podcast is you kind of get

that trifecta of like renewable energy and
new just energy challenges.

to obviously electric vehicles and
electric transportation.

And then there's kind of the third
component, which is actually making all

these work together through the grid,
obviously.

And then really what we're seeing the big
need is through newer and smarter grids,

like what is leveraged with microgrid
technology, and then obviously how energy

storage plays into that, kind of making
the system we have even much more

efficient and ideally have a higher
uptime.

So with that, I'll kind of, I know you
wanted to talk quite a bit about it, but

like, like we're, let's take a step back
just in case I feel like the last couple

of episodes have been pretty electric
vehicle heavy.

So for those who may not be as familiar
with micro grids, what's a good way for

people to think about how that is
different from the current American grid

here in North America?

Yeah, I mean, in its simplest terms,
right, when we talk about a microgrid,

what that is, is a localized community of
not only generation, but storage and

distribution.

that doesn't rely solely on connection to
a larger generation source further away

from where you're using the energy.

The concept behind why a microgrid makes
sense is that you can take a small

community or a series of buildings or even
a specific property almost entirely to

self -sufficiency through the use of
distributed energy resources.

And when we say that, we talk about things
like battery support.

We talk about generation on site like
solar installations, and a combination of

those things will allow you...

to remove what otherwise would be a load
on the grid, you know, and what could be a

grid constrained area and localize their
usage and their generation and

distribution to one specific subset of
properties or types of infrastructure,

which typically makes it more scalable for
what you want to do in the future without

having to rely on the utility company so
heavily.

You know, I think one, that was an awesome
summary of micro grids, but two, I think

one of the things you mentioned there is a
really great point that I think a lot of

people, it seems like some people when you
start talking about micro grids might just

know enough to be dangerous.

And so they think that micro grids means
that it's kind of its own removed kind of

off the grid completely.

And can it be?

Yes.

But it's the idea is actually that it's
working in kind of in tandem with the

power grid.

and ideally improving it and making it a
more resilient resource for everyone.

Yeah, I think it's really important what
you said there and that, you know, while

it can be totally self -sufficient and not
take anything from, you know, the greater

grid, I think the more appropriate use of
a microgrid is to provide support to

neighboring properties, to the grid
itself.

And in order to do that, right, I mean, if
you can take your load almost entirely off

of what you're relying on from the utility
and then you have excess.

When the utility needs it, being able to
provide that excess bi -directionally to

your neighbors, to your neighborhood, to
the utility itself in the event of a

demand response sort of situation, those
are all very helpful.

And I think the utilities more recently
have gotten really on board with

supporting initiatives that help provide
them with the more resiliency that they're

looking for during the electrification of
the United States.

For sure.

And I think it's a really cool thing that
we're there.

There's obviously a lot of politics that
kind of involved in kind of maybe

misperceptions in the space, but I I've
always thought that there's kind of two

really cool things that micro grids really
help unlock.

And one is redundancy.

Should there be a blackout or something?

but also then kind of that, resiliency
factor and being kind of a net positive

and then almost kind of flipping around
and being coming a, very strong business

case.

for that microgrid, especially if like in
the example you just taught me, like a

small housing community possibly having
their own microgrid that depending on how

it's set up, you can even sell that excess
energy back and find some really great win

-win scenarios for a lot of different use
cases.

So I know one of the things you kind of
wanted to talk about was on the kind of

status of microgrids.

In your exposure at X -Charger, what have
you, and my apologies, how long have you

been now with the company?

So I've been with X -Charge both as a
consultant and then now a full -time

employee for the better part of two years.

My prior role, I was in at a large EPC or
engineering procurement and construction

company where we did a lot of design,
engineering and construction for all kinds

of public infrastructure, be that cellular
telecommunications, satellite earth

station, power substation were necessary
as well as EV charging infrastructure.

And over the last four years, I've moved
specifically into EV charging.

And then I was consulting with X -Charge
as they were migrating their business from

Europe to the North American market.

And then it made sense, you know, about a
better part of a year ago to bring me on

full time and head up business development
for them here.

Yep.

I'd be kind of curious.

I've definitely heard a lot of things as
to where the status of micro grids were

during COVID and before COVID.

I would be just kind of curious to hear
like, and probably good, maybe a

background information for like listeners.

Like the last two years you've been doing
this, like where have you seen the changes

and kind of the opportunities?

Absolutely.

I think when we talk about

microgrids and the growth and proper the
popularity for them, we have to talk about

the price of batteries, right?

Because battery technology is essential to
the microgrid creation and removing that

peak load off of certain properties off of
certain, you know, high demand resources

like EV chargers where you can quadruple
or maybe even 10x the amount of power

coming out of a property that wasn't
designed for that originally.

A microgrid or battery solution helps
really smooth that out.

But a couple of years ago, thinking back
to 2020 when I was in the space, right,

and we were working on infrastructure
projects, most people I talked to were

saying, that's so far in the future,
batteries are cost prohibitive, it's

really not scalable, you know, what are we
gonna do with the batteries when they're

dead?

And then very rapidly over the last four
years, we've gotten much smarter about,

you know, the cell costs.

And I'm sure you've seen the charts online
where it's like exponentially less

expensive, you know, to get some of it.

it went, it was starting to go down.

Then went exponentially more expensive
because of COVID and supply things.

And now we're, for multiple reasons, but a
big part is supply.

we're now seeing it really go down, which
I think if you're in that space, it can be

a little scary.

But I think for others, I think just for
micro grids and a lot of those reliant to

technology in general, this is a huge,
step four that's really kind of helping

accelerate this.

And I think, just one thing that it is
kind of.

Yeah.

Innovation in general typically drives,
you know, efficiencies and costs and

you're starting to see that with
microgrids and battery technology where

it's now much more accessible for types of
projects and folks who maybe aren't the

utility directly, right, to start to
provide these resources to the projects

they're working on, to start to think
about load management in a more

intelligent way than just make a 7
megawatt request from the utility and wait

for the right transformer.

Now you can...

dramatically speed up a project and
increase its profitability if you have the

right kind of solution designed from a
battery and a bi -directional microgrid

perspective, especially if you take
advantage of some of the rebates that are

offered through the federal government,
not only for the batteries, but for any

sort of generation via solar.

Yeah, and I think we've talked about EVs
and it just kind of shook free of my mind

by you saying like the experiences
microgrids and what people were thinking

just a couple of years ago about like,
these are so far out.

And well, one of that technologies, I
don't think it's mature as quickly as

microgrids have is kind of like vehicle to
grid or vehicle to X technologies.

And we're starting to see some of that
develop and good and some of it shake out

that it still might be a little ways away,
but.

I'm curious if there's been any, I know
we've talked about vehicle to grid

potential a lot on this podcast.

I'm just curious if that's something
you've been having more conversations

about lately in your own discussions.

We certainly have.

I think where the most use from a V to X
or a vehicle to grid use case comes into

play is when you talk about fleet vehicles
that are parked, you know, for long

periods of time after they complete their
routes.

These could be last mile delivery
vehicles.

These could be a series of school buses.

You know, there are several companies in
the space.

that focus on that bi -directional AC
level two charging, where you can tap into

these vehicles substantially larger
battery than commercial or than passenger

vehicles, right?

And you can use that energy to not only
offset the charging of other vehicles, but

potentially even offset the entire utility
bill for getting them up and running in

the first place.

If you can get battery connected
resources, interacting in a way with the

utility that helps them out in a demand
event, it can be a very profitable

adventure.

And I think if we're talking about
electrifying every vehicle in the country,

at some point, it's probably a necessary
venture, right, to be able to use those

batteries as resources more than as
strains on our grid.

No, that's a great point.

Kind of going back to microgrid
specifically, where are you seeing the

most, I guess the interest or like when
people, because with vehicle to grid, I

think it was always just to use this kind
of an example, people kind of got the idea

quickly, like, that's a cool use case.

But then the practicality of it and like
the execution of it became a lot more

complicated.

Sure.

then when you start like actually looking
about the technology and what we need to

do, a lot of it's already there.

Whereas vehicle to grid, it's kind of, you
need the right charger, you need the right

vehicle, you need the right software, all
this stuff.

Whereas the others, it's still new, but a
lot of it's already there, kind of, and

something you can kind of take off the
shelf a lot easier.

Sure, and I think when you're the utility
and you're looking at various projects

that are coming through your development
pipeline, when you have a dedicated

distributed energy resource, that's a lot
more attractive to you because you can

depend on that, right?

You can depend on it.

You can pull energy from it much more
quickly.

You can have a one hour system dump
several megawatts, whereas

In a vehicle to grid situation, you're
limited by the capacity of the charger

that it's plugged into, which could be 11
kilowatt from a bidirectionality

perspective.

On a really fast one, yeah, some are even
slower at seven or lower.

So you would need hundreds of them at the
same time in order to get any tangible

value as a utility company.

So what we have seen, at least in our
space recently, is projects that have

these dedicated distributed energy
resources or batteries or microgrids, et

cetera.

they're getting prioritized by the utility
because it's not creating demand, it's

solving a problem for them.

And that allows them to serve more of
their customers more efficiently by not

having to dedicate a transformer to this
project that otherwise could go without

it, right?

Specifically related to DC fast charging.

I'm curious.

I mean, you mentioned you live in San
Diego.

Like if I'm listening to this and I live
in a larger city like a San Diego and what

might be an example of a micro grid
implementation that like a utility would

be doing in a larger city right now that I
could see if either I could become a part

of or something that might actually impact
me on a day to day basis, for example.

Yeah, you know, I think what's a really
fun use case is we have a project in

development right now in downtown San
Diego near the airport where there is a

donut store, you know, with a drive
-through that doesn't have a huge load and

it's in a very condensed, you know, older
infrastructure type of neighborhood.

where bringing in new three -phase 480
power is extremely cost prohibitive.

So we looked at all the various methods on
how to electrify this parking lot because

of its location.

And when we got down to it, our Net Zero
Series products, the bi -directional grid

forming batteries, allows us not only to
take the entire load of that donut shop

off of the grid, right?

But we get to skip what would otherwise be
new line drops and several hundred feet of

run from the point of connection for the
utility for SDG &E.

And that's a project where sure it's a
very small microgrid and we're helping a

donut store, right?

But we're also providing DC fast charging
to the neighborhood without dramatically

stressing out SDG &E in the process or
waiting two and a half years in order to

get the right infrastructure to make that
project happen.

So that's an example, a real world example
that I'm working on right now where using

batteries, using intelligent
infrastructure or distributed energy

resources allows us to speed up the
process, help out the utility and moving

forward.

that donut shop no longer pulls from the
grid during peak times because we have

that bidirectionality incorporated into
our design.

No, that's great.

I feel like I that was completely
incidental or like kind of unintentional

of that example, but I don't think I could
have teach you more up for that.

That's great.

with that, I guess, I mean, there's been
talk about it.

And I think especially as someone who's
been dealing a lot more with the EV

charging space, like one of the big things
right now is like permitting and getting

transformers.

it's really all of this stuff before
anything, any shovels.

It's all that stuff that takes a lot
longer.

Can you share a little bit about how,
obviously like the reduction of

transformers and some of these upgrades,
but are there any other things that kind

of help make a micro grid solution a
better and kind of faster project for

people who might be listening to think
about like, maybe I should approach it

this way instead of doing the more kind of
traditional way with a project they might

be working on or areas in addition where
it saves time in that process.

I mean, I think saving time in general
comes from not needing some of this

extremely limited infrastructure that
we're talking about.

You know, 2000 kVA transformers,
switchgear.

There's such a switchgear shortage in the
country right now that many companies have

resulted to alternatives like H -Frames
where you just bolt on the exact same

components.

get that certified at the field level by
the utility and then use that instead of a

switch gear.

Not as clean, not as neat, but it speeds
up the project.

I think when you start to look at using
batteries to bridge some of that and then

connect directly into house power, which
otherwise would not be possible to power

multiple DC fast chargers, you're using
the existing infrastructure as it is and

then not only kind of skipping the line
for waiting for all that additional

equipment.

but you're taking that load like we talked
about in the donut shop example, we're

taking that load off of the grid moving
forward so that those resources can be

redirected to places that need it by the
utility.

And that's, I mean, that's pretty cool.

And especially in this example where I've
had people who kind of listen to the

podcast, kind of reach out to me and they,
they may be new to the whole idea of EV

charging, but they think it's kind of a
cool thing.

It's like, I own a building, I have this,
what can I do to like actually do it?

And then they start looking in the
logistics and the cost of it.

And it kind of understandably sometimes
scares them off.

Whereas like, this is a great example of
kind of a project that speeds it up.

brings down a lot of the costs and still
makes it a very feasible operation for

both the business and then the addition of
adding charging to the location.

Yeah, what I think is also really
important to focus on and what we focus on

at X -Charge not only internally with our
deployments but with our partners is that

EV charging needs to be a profitable
adventure, you know, without tons of

subsidies, without waiting a decade to get
an ROI.

And in order to do that, you've got to
find a way to get the most amount of

margin you can per kilowatt hour that
you're trading, right?

Because all we're doing is essentially
we're selling kilowatt hours to vehicles

with our technology, right?

And...

Depending on when a vehicle is plugged in,
and we know through untold amounts of data

points that most people are charging
between four in the afternoon and nine p

That's considered peak.

Most people are doing most things that
involve the grid between four and nine p

So if during that time your utility rate
is twice as much as it is at midnight,

you're substantially less profitable in
the time where you're dispensing the most

energy possible.

So if you use batteries and you can
schedule when you want to fill those

batteries, like during super off peak,
midnight to four a

And then during those peak times when you
start to get hit, you're selling energy

that you paid substantially less for,
sometimes half for, right?

And you're still able to service the
customer.

You're more profitable in the distribution
of this energy and that it gets you much

more quickly to ROI, which actually starts
to make EV charging investable.

Some of the most sophisticated investors
in the space right now look at EV charging

at scale and say, it's a little too risky.

There's utilization risk and it's too
expensive from the utility.

when you introduce alternative distributed
resources like batteries, you can start to

solve some of those objections, you know,
at its core.

And it just takes time in order for you to
get the adoption that you need to make

this a very profitable adventure and make
it investable.

Yeah, and I think there's definitely a
couple different parts of this.

We're talking about the batteries in this
case, but also then there's the actual

charging infrastructure.

And I think there's some really cool
products that your team has been actually

delivering.

One of them is the North American charging
standard.

I want to say it's a 200 kilowatt model
that Kyle Connor actually, who we've had

on the show is technically like demoing at
his place in Boulder.

Not in Boulder, but yeah, and I'm trying,
it's not, I always want to call it Fort

Worth.

It's Fort Collins, correct.

And I think that's just awesome to see
that.

And so I'm kind of curious, can you tell
us more about that product and kind of the

interest in that?

Cause obviously there's been a lot of
headlines about the North American

Charging.

And that's a whole different thing.

We can talk about that too, but obviously
that's where a lot of automakers are going

towards that standard.

And they're kind of looking for options
out there in the space.

for effective EV charging.

So yeah, I'd just love to learn a little
bit more about how that's been going and

some of the projects or kind of ideas that
have been unlocked with this new product.

Yeah, you know, I think at X -Charge we
focus primarily on the driver, right?

We want to make sure that if you pull up
to an X -Charge station, no matter what

vehicle you've got, you should be able to
take energy if you really need it, right?

And we started deploying the North
American charging standard before it was

even certified by the SAE for J3400 back
in March of last year.

And the reason we did that and went
through the UL certifications to get that

done was to selfishly prove that we could
charge

Teslas as well as CCS vehicles.

And then about two months later, after we
had already secured our supply chain, the

entire industry decided to adopt the
standard and within a week.

I mean, I think you remember that time.

It was a bit madness when it happened.

And we just so happened to be sitting on
already fully integrated, you know,

publicly deployed infrastructure with the
North American charging standard on it.

The first one we deployed, the first two
we deployed were at a facility for MD7.

in Dallas, Texas, and then another one for
a C store owner in, Harahan, Louisiana.

Both of those had Tesla plugs on them
natively and we deployed those as the

first in the country from an OEM that is
not named Tesla outside of ChargePoint,

right?

So ChargePoint was a couple of days behind
us and they did it at their testing

facility.

We deployed these to customers in March.

So we were really proud of that and we got
a shout out on LinkedIn from PlugShare

because we had the first check in on the
North American charging standard and we

celebrated a little bit as a team.

but it also reminded us that, okay, we
really do have to continue to look ahead

of the curve and continue to innovate to
be more effective with the technologies

that we bring to the market.

And the unit we sent to Kyle Connor is
actually an example of that.

That is our Net Zero series, our battery
integrated, you know, DC fast charger,

where he's able to install that on level
two infrastructure and still provide, you

know, up to 200 kilowatt output to
vehicles, two at a time, you know, on an

ACS or CCS or some combination thereof.

We provided that to them because we feel
that the space really needs to understand

that this is possible and that there are
more options than paying a ton of money to

the utility and waiting a ton of time to
get this done.

And we're ready and rocking with deploying
that to customers today and have been

doing it globally since 2020.

So with that, I mean, have there been kind
of the change to the NACS or J34 and

whatever we want to call it now from CCS,
have there been any kind of surprise

learnings or I mean, is it other than just
switching over and getting a different

supply chain for the plug?

Has it really been pretty straightforward
or I feel like there's probably got to be

more to the story as far as maybe new
discoveries or challenges by just going to

a different plug.

There certainly are, right?

A supply chain was the first challenge we
had to overcome.

And, you know, and full disclosure, I'm no
engineer.

I simply play one on television.

But in talking to my team, as we started
the implementation of that connector, we

wanted to make sure that it did work.

And the first thing that we found out is
when you plugged in back then, it doesn't

happen now, but when you plugged in a
Tesla, you know, in 2022 into an NACS

charger that was typically a CCS charger,
not made by Tesla.

It only charged Teslas that had CCS
communication chips in them, right?

Because we didn't have the language.

Nobody in the space had the communication
language or the protocols to speak to

these older Teslas that were designed
exclusively for the supercharger network.

So when some of our customers in 2016, you
know, Model S's would come and plug in and

their cars wouldn't recognize the charger,
for a little while we're scratching our

heads.

Couldn't quite figure out why, because
everything we rented from Hertz and some

of our personal cars would plug in and
charge right away.

These were all 2023 vehicles, 2022
vehicles.

And then we started to piece it together.

And that's why it's so important as an OEM
to go through these interoperability tests

with all manners of vehicles and all years
of vehicles and not just the ones that are

on the market today or the ones that will
be released tomorrow so that we catch

those things and don't have frustrated
customers at the plug.

sure.

With kind of, I mean, are you seeing with
a lot of these chargers that have kind of

the battery backup system allowing for
level two installation locations, is that

becoming like a majority or is what
there's definitely a need for I'm just

kind of curious if this is like really
opening up like 25 % greater or is it like

all the sudden this is like a lot of
people like, this now makes way more sense

for me.

Right.

uptime and everything else really makes it
a much more straightforward answer.

It definitely depends on the use case,
right?

I think if you are a charge point
operator, a public charge point operator,

trying to bring this infrastructure to
somewhere where you otherwise just can't

do it, battery integrated solutions are
the right call.

If you are someone who has an excellent
location that has tons of power available

from the utility, we make other products
that I think would probably be a better

fit if you plan to turn over 25 or 30 cars
a day through two units.

It's tough for a battery to keep up unless
that battery is several megawatts large.

So we do make products like our C7 that is
a direct 480 connection.

It's a 400 kilowatt liquid cooled, you
know, simultaneous charging unit with

dynamic load balancing, all the fun words
that you want to use in EV charging.

That is your unit.

If you really want to just sell as much
energy as quickly as possible and you have

the power to do it, more power to you.

We have products for that.

Many great companies in this space have
products for that.

What differentiates us is if you don't
have that amount of power and you still

want to do DC fast charging, you're
basically required to use a Net Zero

series product or some other battery
integrated solution.

And we figured if you're going to go as
far as to include a battery with the

charger to make it easier to install, you
might as well make that charger and that

battery bi -directional.

It should have a direct solar input DC to
DC like ours does so that you don't lose

any energy converting it from DC to AC and
then back to DC to use it to charge cars.

This is the most efficient way for you to
not only offset your need from the grid,

but in theory, if you had enough solar and
enough time in between cars, you could be

totally grid free, right?

And provide energy that you didn't pay per
kilowatt hour for.

And instead you were able to generate that
on site and distribute it to cars.

That's the best case scenario from a micro
grid perspective.

I mean, yeah, that's like about as ideal
of a situation as it gets for that use

case.

Yeah with like obviously the Inflation
reduction act always keep calling it the

IRAs.

I have to remember what sometimes what it
How have you seen that kind of impact

Obviously before that there were subsidies
for charges there were subsidies for solar

and stuff, but it seems like part of the
goal was

Hopefully it also make it so these could
be packaged things together to kind of get

a lot more of these products.

Not only just implement, but implemented
as a package thing instead of maybe having

to do multiple phases of the installation.

Are you seeing that as kind of an outcome
of this?

Or are you also maybe just, is it just
word of mouth?

This is just something more people are
hearing about so they're kind of coming to

you naturally.

Sure.

I believe the IRA has had a great impact
on battery integrated technologies.

And the reason for that is typically
with...

Nevi funding or Baba compliance, you know,
you're looking at some portion of the,

just the chargers that will be reimbursed
or in some cases, if you went in Nevi

project, it could be the whole project,
but you have some large number that you

must contribute to that.

When you add a battery, you know, the IRA
allows for you to take a tax credit of 30

% of the entire project.

And if you're using battery integrated
project or solutions, that number can be

pretty large.

It could be a million dollars in hardware.

that $300 ,000 kind of off the top, you
get to throw to the bottom line as a tax

credit, which is tradable or a rebate of
some sort if you're a tax -free entity.

And that dramatically brings down the
capex of a project.

So you have the batteries, you brought
down the capex, and now you can use the

batteries to peak shave, right, and pay
less for your energy, or you install solar

and can maybe even circumvent it entirely
in certain use cases.

Now you're going to be much more
profitable over time as you sell energy to

cars that you either don't have to pay for
or you can subsidize dramatically.

by taking during super off peak.

I think that's the most important impact
that we've seen is just CapEx to the

project itself because like I talked
about, most investors are pretty wary of

the EV charging space because of how
crowded it is at the moment and how long

it takes to ROI.

When you start to add batteries and then
you add a large tax credit to that, you

get way more competitive much more quickly
for the long term.

Now do you know if it is just batteries or
is it if the project has batteries or

solar, technically it can count for the
30%.

So I think you just need batteries to get
to the 30%.

Right.

And, and, you know, again, I am no expert
in the tax code, but you just need

batteries to get to the 30%.

And if you do have solar, there are
additional drivers to help get you to like

the 40 % range.

If you have generation and storage on
site, you know, we've seen as much as 40 %

of a project get funded.

And that's not, you need to try and win,
right?

You can just.

send in your details to the IRA and say
this qualifies and you earn that money.

Sure.

when it's, I get it, like if the parking
lot's already there, but like there's so

many of these projects where they're
building a whole new facility and then

parking.

And if it's going to be all new anyway, it
adds a bit of cost, but the Delta is so

much less.

If you just plan it all at once and then
you can start unlocking so many cool,

Right.

I think.

It's mostly price has been the challenge,
right?

That's the toughest thing for people who
invest in EV charging to overcome because

it requires a little bit of faith, right?

This is an asset class that has yet to
kind of shake itself out as reliable.

And we're starting to see the reports from
EVgo, Electrify America, even Blink.

You know, these companies are up nearly a
hundred percent year over year in revenues

and that number doesn't go down next year,
right?

So now that they've started to see the
adoption rate get where we need it to be

to see that growth continue.

It's more about how do we optimize every
site that we've got and adding solar,

adding batteries, adding technologies that
work on 208.

Like we make a charger that's a direct 208
connection so that you don't need to bring

in 480 new power and some properties.

These are things that help just
incrementally increase the profitability

of a site.

And I firmly believe that once EV charging
gets to the point where it is investable

by all the largest entities that do this
type of infrastructure investing.

you will see so much of it that it will
provide that consumer confidence that we

need to get to the next tier of EV
adoption.

When you talk about someone who's kind of
on the edge or like looking to go and

become one of these people that wants to
invest in it, how are they, what is, in

your experience, like how do they come to
you?

Is it like, I'm curious about this or I'm
looking to do X thing and since I'm

building a building, I'm gonna throw in EV
charging.

Or I heard about these tax credits in the
IRA.

Can you help me there?

I'm just kind of generally curious about,
in your experience, if there is kind of

like a ideal customer that comes to you
fairly regularly with just like, yeah, I'm

looking to do X and can you help me get to
this end product?

Yeah, I think our most common customer
arch types, there's three of them, right?

You've got the folks who have fleets that
have electrified and they're looking for a

more effective way to charge their
vehicles.

Sometimes that's level two, if their
fleets have significant periods of

downtime or overnight, et cetera.

Whereas if you do have like a black car
service that we service in Vegas, you

know, their vehicles are in service 24
seven and they're all electric.

So we had to provide a solution for them
that kept them going, you know, with DC

fast charging in their garage where they
could not get more power from Nevada

energy.

So we had to make do with what we had and
that dynamic load balancing is a good

solution for them.

The reason they found us is they went to
Nevada energy to request more power for a

typical DCFC install and they couldn't get
it.

So then they started looking at
alternatives.

Well, what can I do with the power that
I've got?

You know, and X -Charge provides solutions
to do that.

And then the third type is, you know, the
property owners or the charge point

operator who wants to take advantage of
the EV revolution and start to provide

this infrastructure sort of as a service,
you know, and be the broker in the middle.

Those folks usually find their way to us
through trade shows or through word of

mouth or...

or they went to go and install a charger
and realized how long the lead time for a

transformer was.

So now they're backpedaling trying to
figure out what the solution is that

doesn't require 2000 kVA.

And you know, that's where X -Charge comes
in to fill that gap.

Interesting.

Yeah, one of the things you meant, and I'm
kind of surprised we haven't heard more

interest in kind of that.

I haven't been really able to come up with
the right name to describe it, but

essentially commercial EV usage.

Like, I mean, all the headlines we saw
coming in the news in the winter, like in

Chicago with all these EV charges are
overwhelmed and said, well, majority of it

was just understandably like usually Uber
drivers or others that needed kind of that

commercial use.

and you look at the traditional combustion
engine gas industry and You go up and down

anywhere on the west coast.

You'll see the pacific commercial fueling
Gas stations are specifically for either a

town car service or large trucks and so it
kind of inherently keeps The different

traffic flows when someone goes to refuel
and there just hasn't been quite that yet.

It seems like for EVs

It just seems like everyone has to go to
the local supercharger whichever charger

is closest to them instead of like having
that distinction of This is a private one

that X company has just for theirs or it
is Whether it's X charger some business

that just sells only or charges only for
commercial use Evies and I'm curious

that's great to hear that someone has done
that but it is that becoming more of a

thing or have you seen anything?

kind of larger scale than that, instead of
it being like a one -off business, there's

someone, there being the business case
where someone's gonna say, I'm gonna be

the Pacific commercial EV charger along
the West Coast for Uber drivers or

whoever.

Sure.

There are a couple of companies that do it
now and, you know, using an example

without naming any companies specifically
in the San Diego area, the airport has

electrified its people movers and those
are in operation, you know, 20 hours a day

until the quiet hours in San Diego.

And they, they,

you know, either leased or bought up a
large portion of land adjacent to the

airport.

And then they put in a ton of DC fast
chargers with a new power request from SDG

&E.

And those chargers are specifically for
these people movers.

They're for the electrified taxi fleets to
try and keep them off of the very

constrained local infrastructure from the
EV goes the electrify Americas, the Tesla

superchargers.

And they're not designed to handle these
large buses.

They don't have pull through stalls.

It's very inconvenient when someone's
going to block three stalls of charging so

that they can get their truck recharged.

Now, you can't really blame the truck
driver.

He's working with what he's got, right?

So in my opinion, that just needs to be a
space that's more mindfully attacked by

the folks that provide this level of
infrastructure as a service or as a

business.

Those who provide ChargePoint operation as
a professional business, they know that

there is a specific customer type that
they're after.

And if you're after just public charging,

you pick the right parking lots for that.

You pick the commercial lots that have the
VOMs, the Starbucks, those sorts of

convenience features and amenities in
them.

And if you're charging fleet vehicles,
you're talking to your in -customer first

and saying, where would we solve a need
for you?

And in this case of the San Diego airport,
it has to be within a half mile of where

these things are typically on route.

And they did find that piece of property
and then they fenced it off and added RFID

cards for gates so that only they could
access it.

And that solves both problems.

You're not congesting the public
infrastructure and the people who need it

on a commercial side are able to get to
that quickly without running into

challenges in stall design and how to turn
their vehicles around.

I've seen lots of medium class vehicles
charging at Electrify Americas because

it's all they had and they take up half of
all the stalls and it's really

inconvenient and they have 200 kilowatt
hour batteries that take forever to

recharge to begin with.

So.

It's good to see that the industry start
to differentiate itself in those various

use cases and not just say all chargers
are good chargers in the right place.

For sure.

And I figure that is happening.

I just hadn't heard too much.

And like, there are obviously, usually
it's kind of like city or a county level

that might have like a bunch of electric
buses.

They'll have their own Depot or something,
but then you kind of start getting into

that medium use case where, you're getting
the negative headlines that we saw with

like a lot of Uber drivers and just trying
to find out that what that right balance

is.

so that that's great to hear that it's
probably not going to happen overnight,

but it is.

being solved, which I figured it was,
yeah.

it's important because there are certain
types of public services.

Let's take police departments, for
example.

You typically don't pull up to a gas pump
and see several cop cars refueling there,

right?

It's very rare when they do that and it's
on a need -by -need basis.

They have gas pumps at their depots.

You know, as these vehicles electrify,
because they're going to the vehicles or

the shops, as they call them, go from
shift to shift, right?

They don't really get a whole lot of
downtime and, you know, the police

department is open 24 -7.

So they're starting to look at DC fast
charging infrastructure as well, because

level two doesn't quite do it for them
when those vehicles need to be back out on

the road in half an hour.

So giving them their own DC fast chargers
behind the fence at these police

departments is something that we're
contacted about quite a bit actually to

help make that happen.

And that's going to provide the confidence
not only to the department, but to the

officers themselves and having the ability
to use these vehicles for all the various

use cases that they need every day to keep
our communities safe.

Yeah, I'm kind of curious with that kind
of use case where it's a pretty frequent

DC fast charge, is there, and this is
obviously probably kind of model specific,

but I'm just kind of curious, is there
like a speed you've been, or like a

charger you recommend, maybe not all the
way at the 200 kilowatts, or maybe just

site specific, like maybe 50 or 100 is
good enough for these, or?

I think it depends on, I mean, most
departments have very good data about how

long their vehicles will sit in soak time,
we call it.

Gotcha.

it typically requires almost a
consultation from a charging company to

look at your fleet.

How many are you electrifying right now?

Okay, well, here's the plan.

Because if you want to go with 16 stalls
of DC fast charging at a police department

now, no way you've got the infrastructure
for that.

So you would start with two to four
stalls, and then you would say, as you

start to get to 20%, 40%, 70 % of their
fleet is electric, this is how we would

expand upon that, you know, and use some
dynamic load balancing.

Maybe all the chargers are capable of 200,
300 kilowatt.

But when they're all plugged in, you can
ramp that down substantially to 50 to 100

kW each.

And that way you're not putting such a
strain on the resources that you've got in

order to make this happen in the first
place.

Yeah, I mean, that's definitely been an
interesting topic is for so long, people

said, DC fast charging ruins the battery
over the lifestyle.

I like life of the battery.

And it's like.

The more data we've seen of it, it
surprisingly is pretty minimal.

If any, depending on the, it's like, since
most are now thermally managed systems,

any V's that's really gotten rid of it.

So you can see these super, I think
probably the most common is just because

of the volume of this Tesla is that were
used as like Ubers and stuff that were

pretty much exclusively DC fast charge.

And it, it's like, maybe it's a couple of
percent extra degradation of that, but if

the number is so small, it's so, you
can't, you almost can't even tie it to DC.

It could just be that battery.

It could have been some other use case or
like it was in the cold a lot more or

something, which is really cool to see
that that's kind of.

Sure.

might not be practical for some use cases.

So it's turned out that if you need an EV,
more likely than not, there's a way to

make it realistic for your business.

I think in the industry, you know, those
of us have been in a while and know quite

a bit about the battery technology in the
vehicles.

We are willing to say, you know, I'll go
out on a limb here to say that DC fast

charging is not inherently harmful to your
battery, at least not to a measurable

degree.

that over the life of ownership of that
vehicle, you will notice in your day to

day.

I think there's several studies on some of
these 2014 through 2016 Tesla Model S's

that were primarily DC fast charged.

And you're seeing degradation of sub 10 %
over the course of a decade.

That, you know, I think that would be what
we consider an acceptable loss, you know,

whereas with an internal combustion engine
over the course of a decade, the wear and

tear on the motor itself usually will be
more significant than that of, you know,

the electric vehicle equivalent.

And the cost to replace a motor is
probably about the equivalent of the cost

to replace a battery these days.

I've had several less than ideal ICE
vehicles over the years that I've liked to

own and drive it until it explodes.

And when they do explode, I have never
gone through the effort of replacing the

engine.

Turns out I've always just replaced the
car.

Right, right.

Well, it's you bring up a really great
point that I don't think a lot of people

realize is yes, evs are warranted to like
have a degradation level and stuff like

that and and then within that degradation
level like we're telling the impact of dc

fast charging is like Potentially a small
percent of that.

It's even hard to tell to what extent?

but combustion engine vehicles lose power
over time as well that I and I don't think

enough people fully appreciate that one of
my

favorite like top gear things they did was
they all went out and got like the goal

was to get like a I think it had to be at
least 20 years old or something some sort

of random european car and they had to
find out who still had the most power of

the what the car came with and I don't
think any of them crossed even the 50 mark

right which is such a wild thing that I
just don't think most people fully

appreciate even if you are a mechanic I
think I

Sure.

Right.

There's a reason you have a break -in
period and there's also a reason you have

to rebuild the engine and replace them
eventually too, so.

there's a reason they make high mileage
motor oil, you know, and when these

vehicles get older like that.

Yeah, they get substantially less fuel
efficient in the process too.

So it's not even just less reliable or
less power, but you're literally less fuel

efficient.

So I don't see how that's any different
than less efficient from a battery

perspective.

For sure, for sure.

Well, I think we've talked a lot on that,
the commercial.

But no, this is super fascinating because
it's been one I've been wondering quite a

bit about.

And so I think you are in probably as deep
in the EV charging realm as it can be.

And there has been a lot of kind of
shakeout in this past year, it seems like.

And I think personally, it's unfortunate,
but not kind of surprising.

I feel like there's just been a lot in the
space that had kind of been

built up and maybe good or bad, there've
been a lot of people kind of rushing into

and like we had been talking about, just
with any technology, there kind of is that

rush kind of fall out and then what is
left is what kind of grows to become a

long -term and sustainable industry.

And so I'm kind of curious with what
you've seen because there's so many

negative headlines, has there been kind of
people are now kind of taking a step back

because they're, I don't know if these EVs
things are going to be.

forever or is that more instead of like a
commercial mindset that's more like maybe

a biased personal one -off mindset sort of
experience if that makes sense.

Yeah, I think I know exactly what you're
saying and I think most people I'd be

willing to say that the overwhelming
majority of people who are even remotely

familiar with the space does not believe
that EVs are a fad I don't think that this

is something that's kind of passing in the
wind I think that these vehicles are

coming I think people will adopt them when
they get to the price point that makes it

financially reasonable for their household

and they already provide numerous benefits
from a maintenance perspective, from a

safety and reliability perspective, and a
technology perspective, the cars are here

to stay, which means the infrastructure
has got to get built.

So when you see some of these headlines
and the things that Tesla does and some of

these other companies where they start to
fold due to insolvency, consolidation in

this space was necessary.

There are some very sharp people in this
space, Lauren MacDonald being one of them,

that talk about this ad nauseum.

So I'm not going to rehash their points,
but I think consolidation was necessary.

And I think that those of us, and I know
many obviously in the space who are

already after the deployment of this
hardware at mass, some of these news

headlines and some of these players kind
of pulling out of the space full speed

have only incented us to go faster, to do
more.

I've seen more investors come into the
space over the last two weeks than I had

seen in the last two years because they
believe that a large gap is being left by

people like Tesla slowing down their
deployment plans from a rollout

perspective.

And I believe that Tesla will support
their network very well.

They're in first for a reason and it's not
close.

But them doing anything other than
stepping on the rest of our necks gives

everybody else an opportunity to grow.

And you're going to start to see this
democratize a little bit through other

companies who are coming into the space
with fresh capital and new perspectives.

No, that's great to hear.

And I kind of agree with you.

I think in a lot of ways people were kind
of freaking out because of the Tesla news.

And I think, I don't know, I remember
there's always something people are

freaking about when it comes to Tesla.

And I think they'll only ever be in
trouble if there isn't something good or

bad done by themselves or not that people
are freaking out about.

If it just becomes, it's Tesla doing
another thing and they're not a news

cycle, then that's probably when Tesla's
company needs to be worried because

they're no longer the Apple or the special
kind of shiny thing that they have going

for their space.

Right.

they're saying they're hiring some of
these people back and they had had the

massive layoffs like a year or two ago and
the sales department, no one was like, how

are they ever going to sell cars?

And obviously they survived.

And I kind of think there's, an element
where you can have to separate tests and

leave them out from it.

But at the same time, it is just the also
element of like, that's kind of the short

-term mindset versus.

I kind of taking the temperature of like
one random day and you can do that for

pretty much any industry.

Absolutely.

a really bad temperature or something you
take for that day because that was the big

thing that happened that week.

But looking at it long -term, it just
seems like there's still so much

potential.

And I do agree with that.

I think maybe it's slowed down some of the
EV adoption by car buyers.

But it's so fascinating to me at the same
time because so many of the people who are

saying it slowed down 36 months ago would
have said, EVs are never going to

get to 10 % and then like 12 to 18 months
ago, they're like, I think it's going to

get to like almost 50 % within like a
year.

And now they're like, well, it's slowing
down.

It's maybe it'll be 30%.

And so it's like, it's still like taking a
step back and sure it's slowing down, but

I really do think it's a short -term thing
and it still is really interesting and

surprising me just even though people are
like kind of taking a step back.

Some of these people have been very
conservative and have a lot of industry

experience in the automotive space.

their projections still aren't even I
would say more of the doomsday numbers

aren't even as bad as those numbers they
used to say or others of a similar mindset

only said a couple of years ago.

And you still look at while there's been
some slowing down the Chinese EV market.

I don't think it's like slowing down so
much as it's almost what we've seen in the

North American headlines about the EV
charging space where it's they're slowing

down almost for consolidation.

Not and some market stuff, but It seems
like majority is that is where they are

going and then some and the evs they have
for sale in that space are In a lot of

ways light years ahead of what's
especially when it comes like you look at

the charging capabilities of some of these
and what is even on the market in here or

europe I i'm curious if with like some of
the numbers that had been mentioned

because I mean

Some of these Chinese companies are
claiming that they have cars now that are

much bigger battery pack wise than like,
let's say 100 to 120 kilowatts that can do

anywhere from 300 to, which isn't crazy,
but like almost 500 kilowatts charging.

Just sometimes some of these cars are
closer to like 75 kilowatt hours.

So it's like crazy.

C numbers that we haven't really ever seen
before as far as charge rates.

I'm curious if there's been any, has it,
does that.

ever come up in conversations when
building a site for like future proofing

or how to look at maybe 200 kilowatts as
fast now, but a couple of years ago, 150

kilowatts have been mind blowing and now
it's kind of like at best table stakes.

You know, I think you're absolutely right.

A lot of the discussion that we have now
with customers is how do I get

infrastructure in now that can be upgraded
later?

Right.

And when you talk about the difference in
infrastructure, just for context, right,

for a lot of the listeners that may not be
in the space every single day.

The difference between what's required for
150 kilowatt charger, which is considered

average these days, and a 400 kilowatt
charger is more than double, right, of the

amount of grid connection.

You know, a 400 kilowatt charger is, you
know, with the headroom for NEC, you're

looking at 600 amps of power for a single
unit.

So if you want 10 of those units on site
for any reason, that's six megawatts worth

of power and then some.

The infrastructure to do that is
unbelievably cost prohibitive.

So while you do want a future proof where
possible, the way you do that is by larger

conduit in the ground so that you can pull
more wire when you do get to that stage of

upgrade two, three, four, five years from
now.

But I think the vehicle market is a good
way to kind of use that as a predictor for

where you need to be in the nearby future.

Most EV charging infrastructure is good
for about 10 years of service life before

it needs a refresh or replacement.

And when you look at a vehicle using the
Porsche Taycan as an example,

These vehicles aren't charging at 500
kilowatts, 600 kilowatts right now, right?

And when you buy one, I bet you want to
keep it for six years.

Of course.

Yes.

Absolutely.

And I don't see that one becoming not
relevant from a charge speed, you know,

over the next.

decade, I would be plenty happy to own one
now, you know, and I think I've never met

anyone who looked at a Porsche and said, I
really don't like the look of that

vehicle.

Never heard it in my entire life.

You know, the pan...

what's funny, I liked it.

Yeah.

Yup.

It was polarized.

biased.

That was the only thing that they ever
made.

I was never a big fan of.

But everyone I've talked to has had the
chance to really drive one, enjoy one, and

the interior just swears by them.

Tell you what though, you pull up in a
Panamera to a restaurant and somehow the

Valley always leaves you out front.

It does.

I'm, and I, I don't mean wrong.

It's still, it's still a nice car.

It's just personal, personal taste.

That was just one I aesthetically, I
thought was a bit of a mess.

but I think the Tycon, which was almost
like the second take of that style of car,

11 out of 10.

but yeah, I guess that, that, that is kind
of interesting.

Like, do you see, well it's sometimes cost
prohibitive on the site, the site side.

Have you seen costs and some of this
obviously is still kind of like almost a

supply chain from COVID hangover.

Do you see their becoming scale and costs
associated with larger charging locations

on the utility side coming down at all?

Or is that still kind of a ways out you
think?

Yeah, okay.

think, I don't think we're there right
now.

And I think that there are some programs
for, you know, Southern California

utilities where you can like Salik
Lenniford Edison's rule 21, where they

will pay for all the behind the meter
infrastructure.

That's great.

That's well and good.

but when they pay for it, you're sitting
in line waiting for them to bring it.

And that could be three years.

It has been three years on many projects
that I'm aware of now.

I don't think that we're to the point
where we have gotten ahead of the

infrastructure deployment curve just
because outside of EV charging, there are

many other industries that are, you know,
requiring substantially more power now.

Data centers is a big part of that.

The amount of energy a data center uses is
staggering.

you know, and I'm not going to pretend
that I'm an expert and quote it, but they

require the same infrastructure, the same
kinds of switch gear, the same kinds of

transformers, and then some.

So those projects to the utility are very
important because they're part of the IOT,

the internet of things, right?

In order to get our communities moving
more efficiently and more intelligently,

but they also are a much larger customer
of the utility than the donut store and

the DC fast chargers there, right?

So the utility has got to be mindful of
its constituents funding and its resources

as to what

provides more revenue for the utility that
will then provide them more opportunity to

provide power to everybody.

Right.

No, that's kind of interesting.

Living here in central Oregon, it's the,
I'm trying to think of how many we have.

We have Google, Apple, who else?

Facebook.

Surprised, like all of the big tech
companies have opened up data centers

about like 20 miles east of here, just due
to the cheap power.

And each of them pretty much have had the
ability for them to work with Pacific

Power and BPA and just have their own.

And you're totally right.

It's a fascinating dynamic where it's
like, they only have.

maybe a couple of locations across the US
that need this power.

But the scale of it is so significant that
it buys up not only just so much of their

own resources with the utilities, but also
the custom lines and power lines and

everything that has to be built to just go
to these kind of random locations and the

upgrades associated with it that I get the
business case and some of the other pros

of doing that.

But it's like,

the scale is a bunch of, or a few very,
very, very large sites versus with what

you're kind of dealing with.

It's like maybe best case, some medium
sized cases, but a lot of them.

And I know that's even just a thing that,
especially with solar and people who are

trying to do some of these smaller
installations, like feeding into the grid,

trying to fight for the bandwidth almost
to get on there.

So yeah.

That could be unto itself, its own
podcast.

Yeah.

Complaining or trying to discover ways how
it can be improved.

Maybe let's put that way to be more
positive about it.

But I realized we're also kind of coming
up on the top of the hour here of our

conversation.

And I just want to say thank you so much,
Lou, for coming back on, hoping to have

you again on soon.

And it's well to me how many.

Things have happened in the last few
months since we last spoke.

So I'm sure we'll have you on soon again
to talk about hopefully the all good new

things that have changed until next time.

Well, the pleasure has been all mine
Chase.

It's awesome to be on Great Connections
once again.

I really enjoy the conversation and the
breadth of your knowledge on all these

various topics and you let me nerd out a
little bit with you for an hour.

So I appreciate the time.

I mean, X -Charge appreciates the time and
if you need anything from me, you know

where to find me.

Looking forward to the next one.

You too.

All right, we get it.