Good morning, great connections listeners.

In today's episode, we have a special
guest joining us, Jonny Lieberman, co

-host of the inevitable podcast and senior
features editor at Motor Trend.

We'll be diving deep in the current
automotive market, along with challenges

of transitioning to electric vehicles,
exploring the current state of EV charging

infrastructure and discussing the overall
impact of software defined vehicles for

car owners.

This episode is back with insights and
expert perspectives that you won't want to

miss.

After you listen.

Please share this episode with at least
one other person who would enjoy it and

leave a positive review on our podcast
page.

Your support helps us continue to bring
you top notch content with that.

Enjoy.

I'm really excited for today's episode.

I'm joined by Jonny Lieberman.

He is the cohost of the inevitable
podcast.

I'm sure quite a few are already listening
to it, but for those unfamiliar, it's a

podcast looking at the automotive and the
transition it's going through for electric

vehicles and electric supporting
technology.

Obviously you've been working at
MotorTrend and other places for quite a

while Jonny, but just in case anyone isn't
familiar, you can just give a quick little

overview of your background

Sure.

Hi there.

I'm Jonny Lieberman.

I am the senior features editor and I'm
one of two senior features editor at Motor

Trend.

Kristen Lee is the other one.

I've been at Motor Trend for almost 14
years next month.

Yeah, time flying.

I've been making money writing and talking
about cars for 19 years.

Somehow, don't ask.

It's, I would say stay in school kids.

And yeah, I mean, you know, I never
thought I would be some,

EV advocate or anything like that.

I, like everybody else, I think I got into
this business because I wanted to drive

Lamborghini's really fast and I've done
that.

But, you know, suddenly I remembered like
it was yesterday back in November of 2012,

this thing called the Tesla Model S showed
up and like, wow, if it would have been

gasoline powered, we would have really
liked it.

It was a really good car.

And then, you know, like,

you start learning about them and like,
boy, they make a lot of sense.

And then you, you know, you kind of like,
you know, if you understand, I guess, the

scientific method, you're like, boy,
dumping all the CO2 that's buried in the

earth into the atmosphere is going to have
dire consequences, not for the planet.

The planet, hey, dinosaurs got wiped out.

Planet was just fine.

It's got a dire consequences for my
children and your children and your

children's children and future
generations.

Like, boy, if there was a way to curtail
that and have really good vehicles at the

same time, that's win -win.

And then you started seeing stuff like
Rivians and Lucids.

And to me, it's like game on.

These are better than regular trucks.

This is a better sedan than a regular
sedan.

And a lot of that's larger because it's a
software defined vehicle with a big

battery that can do a lot of amazing
things.

And, you know, do I still love gas cars?

Like, yeah, God, yeah, I just bought one.

So I'm a hypocrite as well, but I'm doing
my best.

And yeah, I'm very, and look, the
automotive industry is going through the

biggest transition since...

We got off steam You know, I got off
horses and so it's fascinating to to be a

witness to it and talk about it gets to
talk about it So that's my my intro I'm

also on a podcast with Jerry Seinfeld at
times called spikes car radio with this

guy spiked Ferris in this guy's Zuckerman.

It's pretty funny.

So Dabble in comedy, although it's
Ostensibly about cars

So comedy is the hobby and then cars is
the day to day job.

No, I'm glad you.

Jerry Seinfeld at Pebble Beach again.

So it's.

I just saw the kind of promotion for that.

So I'm definitely looking forward and
great work on it.

Well, I think let's just take a couple
steps back real quick with just your

background for those kind of listening.

So, how did you originally, you say you've
been doing this for like 19 years now.

What, and I see all those guitars behind
you.

I get the feeling that writing for kind of
car reviews and being in that space

probably wasn't the first job.

What kind of led to getting into that
space?

And then I would love to.

I mean, I've told this story a lot and
it's, it's a little bit of a pocket for

this point, but like true story.

I turned 30 and I was a, I was a webmaster
at an art school and I was so bored.

I, I couldn't even figure out a way to
goof off.

And I got to work at like 9 AM and there
was just nothing.

I reached the end of the internet.

I couldn't even, I couldn't even screw
around.

It was it.

And, and this like voice or this notion
hit me and was like, Hey, if you don't get

up out of this chair.

right now and do something else, you're
gonna turn 40 and another decade of your

one and only life is gone and you've just
wasted it.

And I don't know why I had that
realization, I don't know what, but I

immediately that day reached out, there
was a website called The Truth About Cars,

which at the time was a one man gig, it
was this guy Robert Farago, and he was

like, he used to work for CNN or
something, and he was a very good writer,

and he was just...

doing, I really liked his reviews and I
wrote him and said, Hey, are you hiring?

And he said, go get a car and review it
and we'll see.

You know, and I did.

And, and, and, and, after a little back
and forth, he was like, all right, great.

I'll send you a press car.

And the rest is sort of history.

And then like, you know, I worked really
hard.

I made no money.

And then five years later, Motor Trend
came knocking and, Angus McKenzie said,

Hey, you know, what do you think senior
editor, Motor Trend?

You know, I said,

Let me get married first, but the answer
is probably yes.

And a couple months, two months after I
got married, I started working for Motor

Trend and next month it's 14 years.

So turned into a little bit of a career.

Wow.

And I think that's great to hear because
it is such a, important thing to kind of

find what you're passionate about and to
like have those realizations about

investing the time and doing that great
work.

I'm kind of curious.

Yeah.

feel like a day of work.

Total lie.

It's always work.

I mean, I was grinding to get something
like Fisker went bankrupt today.

I was like, I should probably comment on
it.

And boy, I didn't want to write that.

And like, you know, misery.

But anyways, but I still, I'm fascinated
by the subject matter.

And again, I think what's really cool
rather than,

Only the way it used to be is only writing
about, okay, here's the new X.

It gets 10 more horsepower and it's, it's
10 millimeters lower.

And the, the, tire inflation sticker has
been, moved down two millimeters and the

center of gravity is now, but, it's like,
Hey, this thing, it's got four motors and

it can do anything.

You know, it's like, it's wild, you know?

And so, so it's kind of like, I don't
know.

I I've been using the metaphor that, you
know,

We're at the end of the world series for
internal combustion.

We kind of get it.

There's a new Bugatti V16 that's coming.

That'll be pretty cool.

Corvette Z06, most powerful, naturally
aspirated V8 ever.

670 horsepower.

By the way, the Lucid Sapphire, it's got
three 670 horsepower motors on board.

You know, so it's like, it's just, you
know, we're in the first inning, maybe top

of the second or something of the electric
car revolution.

And I think what's going to start
happening is going to really impress

people.

But yes, there's a hump, a transitory
period we have to get over.

But, you know, I haven't written it yet,
but I have the headline.

It's the shifting goalposts of the
electrification of the automobile.

And I was looking back at an old car.

Yeah.

And I was, thank you.

Don't steal it.

And I was, I was looking at a car driver
from 2004 and like, you know, you open it

up and, you know, Chubba's, you know,
letter to the editor or whatever, you

know, the editor's notes, like, you know,
hybrids suck, you know, page two Brock

Yates, you know, hybrids are a commie plot
to take away your rights.

Page three, mathematical proof from,
Patrick Boudard.

And I hate to call these guys out my name,
but I'm just going to, you know, nuking

Hiroshima was better for the environment
than two Priuses, you know, here's, here's

the math.

Yeah.

now, like, man, I don't want to even, I
want a hybrid.

Give me a plug -in hybrid.

Like, that's what real enthusiasts want,
you know?

So it just moves around.

And...

Why do you think that is?

Is it just kind of like the, as they say,
like, you can take the V out of my cold

dead hands kind of like mentality or what
is?

Yeah.

Red Dawn the other night speaking of nukes
and things coming out of cold dead hands

and John Milius.

What a great movie.

But yeah, I mean, America, we're an
extreme country.

You know, we're in this like hyper
polarized state.

Yeah, look, we've probably been hyper
polarized since before the Civil War,

probably since the founding.

Who knows how they pulled it off.

So somehow, you know, if you're on this
side of the aisle, you hate EVs, you know,

and somehow if you're on this side, you
love EVs.

And I'm just like, I just love cars.

And you know, the continued possibility of
human life on planet earth.

So I, you know, I'm advocating for these
things.

And I think a lot of people take their
eyes off that prize when it's just like,

it's the CO2 stupid.

You know, yes, I think EVs and good
software, we can get better vehicles.

And like, it's not there yet for
supercars.

Although I've driven the Pinafrina Batista
and like,

God, that's good.

But you look at the Rivian R1T, and I am
an owner, proud owner, and I pay them

every month.

I wish they would pay me, but I stupidly
pay them every month because I bought the

damn thing.

It's better than any other truck.

It's just better, I'm sorry.

And happens to be an EV, you could say
that way, or you could say it's really

smart and they used the fact that it has
four motors, they're able to do things

that no gasoline vehicle could do.

you know, in terms of like knowing what
surface it's on because you're sending X

amount of power to the motor and it gets
that much rotation.

And if you send X and get Y, that means
grass or that means a rock or that means

gravel.

You can't do that, you know, because you
got slip and gears and, and differentials.

Yeah.

Yeah.

different parts, but I, I'm kind of
curious.

It is really interesting.

like you said, like there's so much
division and kind of this tribal, at least

online.

And I'm always like consistent.

I've done quite a few road trips.

I've got a buddy actually of all things.

he moved out from Oregon a couple of years
ago and he lives now in the Midwest

selling, Volvo semi trucks.

And so.

he is always like the best person to talk
about just like to get the heartbeat of

what is going on in the central, like it
just in the kind of the Midwest in

general, but also like, especially like
the trucking community that has so many,

and admittedly like needs like you have to
have for like a diesel truck.

And so the skepticism around like hydrogen
and electric vehicles, but it is really

interesting to me that, as you're talking
about, like the goalposts moving what,

really always seems to even bring down the
tribalism is just getting people getting

butts in seats, even though it's kind of
like been set forever and just how quickly

that like, if you're going to have a much
more fun car with way better features,

it's like, you don't really care what part
of the political spectrum it's on,

especially when you're dealing with the
day to day.

And I really feel like even then there's
maybe some traditional car enthusiasts

that are, I think yelling at the loudest,
at least.

in some of the forums, but even then I
just feel like the best thing is always

like, and it sounds like that's even how
your experience was too.

You kind of got behind the wheel of it.

And even if you just forget that it's
electric, the experience of it was just so

much better than what's out there.

Yes.

And to your point, yeah.

Butts and seats is a huge thing.

The other thing is like truckers, long
haul truckers, like no more gears.

Really?

That's great.

You know, like maybe it could drive for
you.

Wow.

Even better.

You know, like it's, it's a, so yeah, you
know,

and especially with, I mean, I'm talking
about passenger vehicles, but you're

right.

Like once you start getting into the
commercial side, especially we had, one of

the kind of early product managers for
Daimler's,

trucking side is it's wild every time a
truck has to start and stop and just how

much I'm trying to blank it's but the
actual force on the frame and the the

amount of torque that a diesel engine puts
on one of these vehicles day to day.

especially when you're driving through
like stop and go traffic that with an

electric or even a hydrogen vehicle that
just is not even a thought anymore.

And it just seems to be like so many of
these things when it comes to the

practicality and the living with it day to
day that really makes the difference in

whether you have that skepticism or you're
just generally curious that people are

kind of jumping to the other side or at
least considering it when they're going to

buy a vehicle.

I hate to even like make it a side thing,
but you know, look, a couple of things

like, like one Bob Lutz has one of my
favorite quotes was Americans buy

horsepower, but drive torque.

So the way we drive, which is like, you
know, jack, rabbiting away from

stoplights, like, EVs are better for that.

you know, and, and, and having, you know,
no gears to downshift, like that's, that's

even quicker.

It's great.

And, but then, you know,

The other thing is like, there shouldn't
be a side.

It's this false narrative almost.

I think the people you keep saying in the
forums, the people yelling loudest are

sort of the people that don't buy new cars
anyways.

And if you were to back up a little bit,
if you were to back up a little bit, what

you'd find is these are the same people
that are like, power windows, that's the

government telling you.

You can't roll up and down.

You got to use a computer to roll your,
and I'm, I used to talk to.

Yeah.

And so it's, it's, I think a lot of people
that are, don't buy new cars or driving

the narrative, people that buy new cars
are like, wait a second.

Like, this thing, this thing can like
drive for me and stop and go traffic.

Like I'd like that.

I never have to go to a gas station.

Like, cause 99 % of the time I just go to
work, man.

I want to come home and.

Last thing I want to do is like get up
early to go get gas or after a long hard

day, stop at a gas.

I can just go home and plug it in.

that sounds heavenly.

You know, so it's, it's, you know, it's,
it's, it's, the loud ones, they're not

really building EVs for you.

You know, you're, you're, driving a 50
year old car.

It's, it's, don't worry about it.

No one's taking it away, but like, don't,
don't, don't try to impede progress.

If that makes sense.

I'm kind of, yeah.

And well, I'm kind of curious, like you
look at some of the brands and globally,

when you talk about like electric vehicles
and as you mentioned, hybrids, it just

like the more it seems like electric
vehicles are getting better, faster, and

just offer a much better experience all
around than hybrids.

And I was in, the new Prius and a couple
other things recently that are big

improvements for them.

But if you look at kind of like what the
step function is compared to how far

electric vehicles are like coming out with
each year.

I am

the Volt, when it came out, went like, I
don't know, 40 miles on a charge and then

it got 106 miles per gallon equivalent.

The Prius Prime, 14 years later, goes 40
miles on a charge and gets 106 miles per

gallon.

But the Prime's a great example of what I
don't like about plug -in hybrids is like,

I was driving it around, I'm like, boy,
this is a really nice EV.

And then 36 miles later, the battery goes
dead and the most miserable.

two liter NA Atkinson cycle engine hooked
to a CVT turns on.

I'm like, who wants this?

It's a miserable driving experience.

I think like plug -in hybrids kind of give
you the worst of both worlds.

You get a bad EV experience and a most
miserable gasoline experience.

And yes, you'll have people, no, you don't
understand my life.

For me, this is ideal.

And it's like, I would say, look.

Plug -in hybrids and hybrids are supposed
to be this transitory step between

gasoline and EVs.

Fine.

Except that EVs are outselling plug -in
hybrids.

So if the end of the bridge is doing
better than the bridge, like, burn the

bridge, you don't need it, you know?

So that's what I think, but.

it's just like, even from like the
engineering perspective of it, just like

the amount of, you're using this, it's a
different chemistry mentally, but these

small, batteries that are having a much
higher cycle life, you've got a, gas

engine.

That's true.

Yeah.

plug -in hybrid, it's a 16 .7 kilowatt
battery.

That's, you know, a lithium ion battery.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, yeah, it's, you know, I don't know
anything about engineering, but look at

Occam's razor.

Like, like what, why would two power
trains?

That's crazy.

That's, that's heavy and bad.

are going to love it longer term.

I don't know if you.

Exactly.

Right.

Exactly.

Now you start doing those affirm loans you
see all over the place now just for, but,

when you kind of look at what these
changes have been, there's obviously the

drive train.

I think that gets a lot of the attention,
but I think, I think that's really

interesting that you guys have really
focused on the inevitable podcast is then

the software side of it.

And that user experience and that really
does kind of make it a night and day

difference.

and I think there's an element where
people say like, that's just kind of like,

it's nothing new.

It's it's what like, like you're saying
power windows or some new, just a new

version of something they can charge you.

But in, I think, I think there is a stair
step function with having an EV and that

kind of charge at home functionality and
being able to do that with an app that's

reliable.

But then yeah, you get like dog mode, you
get all these other things that you really

just couldn't do.

with a combustion engine vehicle.

it's, you know, so we use the term,
software defined vehicle, SDVs and yeah,

that's, that's the game changer.

and Tesla stumbled upon it.

They, they, you know, remember when they
were trying to get the model, S out the

door, nobody would work with them.

Nobody would give them parts.

They're like, Hey, we'd like some, I don't
know, you know, you know, you know, window

motors.

Nope.

So they'd like make their own.

And so like why, the way traditional cars
work is like your window motors come in

from Bosch and your graphics card comes in
from Nvidia and this comes in from another

manufacturer.

Well, everyone's got a screen.

Yeah.

But like, so your engine control system
comes from Johnson controls.

Right.

different languages and then you got to
make it.

So Tesla was like, well, let's make
everything speak the same language

natively.

now you control your software stack.

So, you know, why did Fiskr go bankrupt?

You know, it was because they didn't
control their software stack.

That was, that was the hard part was that
they were just trying to make, because

they tried to do it in a cheaper way.

It's like, okay, we're going to get
suppliers to give us what we need.

And we'll have somebody else build it.

We'll have another factory build it.

and they just never got control of their
software stack.

And that was, you know, you go back and
watch that whatever's name was video, I

can't think of his name, but the worst car
ever drove.

He was just talking about the software,
hardware is fine.

You know, so you look at Tesla and you
look at Rivian, like their software is

incredible.

Especially I would say these days Rivian,
like just murdering the software game.

And you know, go back and look at, you
know, phones before the iPhone.

Remember how many of those there were?

Like once the iPhone showed up, game over.

Guess what the iPhone is?

Software defined phone.

You had an operating system.

You had some really good hardware, but the
software was able to take advantage of it.

And it's funny what we're able to do with
our phones now, but there was a time when

you couldn't do anything.

And you couldn't have a speedometer on
your phone because you didn't have an

accelerometer built in.

So you know, you...

the worst part of the modern phone now is
the actual phone.

It's like so many of these other things
that it's unlocked in the use cases around

them.

But I think it's kind of funny because
you're right.

I actually had interviewed Henrik Fisker
for auto line a couple of years ago now,

but it was really interesting talking with
them and obviously amazing history of

designing cars and some beautiful vehicles
he's made.

But it just seemed like the whole business
model, even back then to me, it was like,

okay, I get this from like an MBA
business.

Thesis that's like, this sounds like a
great way to build a car.

It just doesn't seem like, I mean, and you
look at the startups that have been

successful, Tesla, Rivian, and to some
extent to, lucid, at least with the brand

recognition, it's that personalization,
not just even in the software level, but

in kind of just like creature comforts and
some of these things that they built into

those vehicles.

And I think the fiscal ocean was designed
really beautifully, but in a day to day

living practicality, and then obviously
the software level of it.

You just don't have that kind of
connection to the actual driver that has

made these other startups so successful.

again, I think back on the, if I'm a
Rivian almost two years now, it's almost

two years, two years?

Yeah, it might be two years now.

I can't remember.

God, two years I think.

Anyhow, sorry.

But I knew how good it was off -road when
I bought it because I did a lot of off

-roading with it.

I knew it would be really fast because it
has 835 horsepower.

But what's really impressed me about
owning it is two years later, the car is

much better than when I bought it.

for sure.

doesn't happen.

Well, I went to bed one night and I had
270 miles of range with the off -road

tires.

I woke up, I had 285.

I got pet mode, I got camping mode.

They totally, completely reconfigured all
the major controls because it's software

-defined, they're able to, and they have
good programmers.

You can have bad software -defined
vehicles, Riving just happens to make a

really good one.

And yeah, so it's a, you know, just
everything keeps moving.

think that is, no, that's, that's a really
good point is just that you get used to

that kind of user experience, owning the
vehicle.

It's like, so if you go to look for
another vehicle, it's like, well, it

doesn't get software updates or it's, it's
the same with like your phone.

I, my iPhone's like three years old, but I
still get updates and get support as these

new features come out.

And, our daily is just a Tesla model one.

It's the same thing.

doesn't want to waste great.

There's nothing wrong with it.

Maybe it's a little ubiquitous these days,
but it's a wonderful product.

that's almost the downside, but almost
kind of the nice thing you kind of just

blend in.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I remember we did a thing where
we're doing an IONIQ 5 versus a Model Y,

it's a white Model Y in LA.

And like, I would forget who I was
following.

I'm like, I'm looking for the car.

He's right in front of me.

He's my friend, Scott driving.

But I would like, where'd he go?

Cause it's just another white Model Y.

But yeah, I mean, you know, again, there's
so much you can do.

Like, again, another new feature that just
came out with the Rivian, they're grading

chargers.

In other words,

All the charges in America, another person
from Rivian is probably charged there and

it gives them a grade.

And what is the grade?

Well, I forget the exact formula, but it's
like, is it up?

What's the speed?

How long did it take to start?

Cause if you have an EV, you've been to
electrify America and it's taking you 25

minutes after being on the phone, some
poor schlub who has to answer your

screaming phone call.

So like it takes all in account.

That's an A charging site.

That's a C.

And like you're on a road trip.

I'm going to go to the A.

You know, it's brilliant, but that just
showed up like two months ago, you know.

And who else?

actually doing a similar thing for Tesla
in Europe because the traditional fast

charging network had been much more
reliable there.

I'm not sure if they're still going to
implement that here, but it's totally

there.

It is interesting because there clearly
has also been an improvement recently in

public fast charging.

Cause I had.

Yeah.

it, but yeah, it's gotten a lot better.

that's the other thing too.

But, but you're totally right.

I mean, my whole thing has always been
with the visa, especially fast charging is

it has to be at least, I mean, this is
true with any technology.

A new technology has to be not just as
good, but better than the technology it's

replacing for it to take off.

And that's kind of where the supercharger
thing, you've got the experience, you plug

in, you walk away.

And obviously you got plug and charge
technology with other vehicles that

essentially is doing the same thing.

And you don't even have to worry about
swiping card.

You just step in and walk away.

And unfortunately, we're now finally just
seeing not only just the implementation on

the charger side, but also with more cars
offering that.

However, exactly your experience can't
what you're talking about.

I went through Wyoming, about a year ago
and it's, it was all kind of level two or

not level two, but, the version two.

Tesla DC fast chargers in it was fine, but
there along the way, there were a couple

electrify America.

So I was like, you know what?

What the hell?

I'll, I'll just swing in there, see if
it's a little bit quicker.

And that was a terrible mistake because I,
I, it took me one.

I was just getting so spoiled.

Cause I done about, on that trip, I was
doing about 800 miles a day.

And so I just been spoiled about the, you
just pull in, plug it in, and then I'd be

line it to the bathroom.

And so here I kind of plug in, I already
had the pass and everything in the app

download.

want to go to the bathroom, but you have
25 minutes to turn the thing on.

Yeah.

Right, right.

And like, okay, this will just work like
it just like pumping gas and I'll and I'll

Yeah, no another experience where it was
not

insane to me.

I mean, it's like, okay, like the Iona, I
think it's called the network that's

coming the joint venture, Hyundai and BMW
and GM.

But it's insane that it took this long
that like that these companies were so out

to lunch.

They're like, yeah, we'll just make people
buy a $70 ,000 car and don't really know

how they'll charge it.

Where I've been saying this since

since 2013, the smartest thing Tesla did
was the supercharger network.

I didn't really get that it would be so
much better than other, I knew other

charging solutions would come.

The reason I thought it was so good was
you had a bunch of people that had just

bought $100 ,000 science experiments that
all stood around in a circle for 45

minutes staring at each other going, hey,
good job, yeah, you're smart too.

I'm smart, you're smart, we're smart.

And it was like brand building.

But I didn't realize,

I was just, I couldn't, like, I don't get
how, no, again, I believe Electrified

America has turned a corner, but I just
couldn't believe how they could be so bad

for so long.

And the EV go, it seemed to have like
taken up Electrified America's horrible

old mantle of like, we're the worst, you
know?

But that said like ChargePoint, I was at a
place last night, three ChargePoint

chargers, all broken with signs on them.

Like we're broken, meaning they're just
never getting fixed.

But I think, yeah.

ChargePoint business model makes it so
difficult for those to ever be replaced.

and yeah.

like F that, you know.

So yeah, anyways, it's comical.

But I think like I said, Electro America
in particular has seemed to turn a corner.

But you know, one step forward, two steps
back, Tesla, you know, they fired all 500

people that work for the supercharger
department.

So it's like, what, you know, and I was
talking to people at like GM, who were

like, there was no one for us to call,
like we wanted to, to, to

call someone to like get this going.

We're going to switch GM products over to
the Tesla.

We couldn't get ahold of anybody.

And I know in Germany, they're having
board meetings like, should we be

switching to NACS?

Like what's the actual advantage besides
ubiquity?

It's slower.

So it's still the first inning.

It's the wild.

I don't know.

I use, I did a road trip, in the UK using
CCS chargers and it wasn't too bad, but,

just the inherent, I think also going back
to that example of like trying to make the

new technology easier for everyone, just
having one plug that works for AC and DC

and just the size of it makes it so much
easier for accessibility and that stuff

that I don't, whether it's the invest in
Tesla supercharger network or not, I think

just inherently that design will be a big.

plus for the end user experience,
especially with some of the, yeah.

was a way better technology than VHS.

Tesla had it.

They fired everybody right at this
critical point.

Like they might've...

fair, they didn't fire everyone.

They just fired the business development
side and they,

who worked for Supercharger.

Every single employee fired them.

not the actual like people working or
doing the manager the live updating.

That's what I've heard from people that
were still there that it's like

essentially and I it sounds like

No, no, he, he cleaned it.

He hired some back, but I also heard
that's going to be, those are temporary

hire backs even because these were like,
you know, whatever, you know, you know,

high management people that got hired back
to like keep the lights on in the

department.

And they're like miserable.

It's.

It's.

to, it's been a little bit of it.

They did hire like they did.

He did let go like a lot of the people who
were doing the, site kind of development

and that stuff.

But as far as like the actual management
and upkeep of the supercharger, that team

was still there, that part of it.

And now they've slowly.

I heard it as everybody in Supercharger
was groomed out and everybody in new model

development was groomed out.

And it's just crazy.

It's just, I just don't get it.

Yeah.

It's just, it's like what, you know?

And again, you don't have to switch.

Yeah.

Yeah.

they had actually announced a bunch of
technologies.

I mean, I do think a big part of it was
just kind of like him firing the person

because they didn't want to make the
cutbacks as like what was being said, but

there were also a lot.

What was interesting was there were
actually a lot of Tesla product

announcements last year that we just never
saw.

And I do kind of.

does it.

I mean, you know, look, yeah.

no, I mean, I mean, it's one thing like to
that's a fair point, like the Cybertruck,

all that stuff, obviously, yeah, took one
and then they do deliver it.

But there was like, they alluded to a
wireless charger, they alluded to like

some new charging technology, they allude
to other stuff.

And then it just never got anywhere.

And he probably was distracted with
Twitter and everything else.

But it does seem like there may have been
a change, good or bad, with him kind of

like coming in to get things for this next
version.

I hope that's the case.

Just because I like to see good
competition, but we'll see.

I don't know.

It's definitely been an interesting few
months with all of the kind of charging

space, unfortunately.

Yeah.

No, but again, like, you know, you think
about it right now, if you're every other

OEM, well, Hey dude, we're already doing
CCS.

Why are we switching?

You know, like we don't have to switch
that, you know, like, so I just think it

was, it was just like, yeah, you know,
it's like, Hey, my car and you know, CCS

charges faster than, than, than, than any
CS.

Like, you know, sure.

There's a potential.

stand, like the actual J 3 ,400 charges
faster.

That's the problem is none of those are
actually in implementation right now.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, you know, I've seen, God, I had a
Lucid that was charging it like something

ridiculous.

It was like over 300 kilowatts.

It was flying.

The thing was insane.

You know, Tesla can't do that.

You know, the NACS that I've seen can't do
that yet.

You know, it was possible, but where are
they?

So it's just this real self -inflicted
gunshot wound of like, why would you do

that now?

You know, it's like...

You know, again, right now, the only
vehicles that come with a native NACS port

is a Tesla.

Everyone else is still using CCS and like,
yeah, boy, you'd save us a lot of money if

we just left it CCS.

You know, they really would.

Customers, you know, CCS customers, they
don't care.

You know, they, yes, sure, it'd be nice to
have the access to the supercharger

network, but guess what?

I got an adapter, it works fine.

So that's, it's a weird time.

I mean, I, for sure.

I don't think there's an argument there.

Good or bad.

It's become weird times.

but I, I, I don't know.

I think it's, I'm kind of torn.

I I've used both, and J 1772.

and I just, I do think that the one kind
of plug that works for anything, whether

it be AC or DC is just a better user
experience and just kind of simplifies a

lot of things for people who are trying to
make the switch.

But again, you know, beta max was a better
technology than VHS.

You know, the porn industry likes VHS and
that, you know, it's just, it's, it's

where you're going to sell the most.

And like, you know, Tesla sales are down.

other EV sales are all up.

there's a lot of CCS like, maybe you don't
switch.

You know, I already, you know, like I
already got a CCS at home.

You know, I don't really want to switch.

You know, so.

It's just weird.

It's just a weird time.

Well, wait, so when you say you have the J
1772, you mean the kind of AC charging

for, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

the same top plug, doesn't have the two
pin.

I mean, I can go to a fast charger, use
the two pin, but yeah.

no, and it is kind of interesting though,
just looking at all the different

infrastructure and stuff that's been out
there.

you, you kind of mentioned lucid and I
think that their products from an

engineering standpoint had been very
impressive, but then kind of going back to

the software defined vehicle side of stuff
is where there's kind of been a big, at

least in my experience, kind of let down.

And I think you've probably talked to the
team more and probably obviously had more

seat time than I have to.

I'm just kind of curious if you like.

Obviously you have a Rivian for your day
to day vehicle, but like looking at others

kind of in the space, which have been not
even necessarily started, but like what

happened?

The EVs that are kind of out there right
now that you're the most excited about

interesting.

I mean, for me, the big one right now is
the new Porsche Tycon, but,

I haven't experienced it yet.

I'd love to.

I think BMW is kind of smashing it right
now.

Now where they're falling down is their
software.

It's like it's a cluttered mess.

They're central nav screens.

Actually surpass Mercedes is like, I don't
know where anything is.

Can't find it.

But I think BMW though, like man, the i5,
the i7, the iX, solid, good, good

products.

They really are.

You know lucid I mean, you know the the
the range to speak for itself and they did

do like a pretty big Software update that
did fix a lot of it It's it's still not

good enough and I think they know it's not
good enough and they I think they're

really scrambling to get gravity out the
door But like again, you know boy when

gravity comes I think Peter was saying
there's some scenario where maybe it's

gonna get like six kilometers.

Sorry six miles a Kilowatt, you know,
which is like that's like my riving gets

to you know, that's

That's efficient.

And they're starting to license their
hardware.

And it's just unbeatable from that
perspective.

So yeah, their software, it's always been
the weak spot of the car.

It's not the hardware.

But it's not like Fisker where they just
didn't work at all.

It's just, yeah.

I think Mercedes, the people that own
them, they really enjoy them and they

actually are very solid EVs.

Some of the Audis are pretty good, some
are pretty old.

Yeah, I mean, Tycon, they just announced
today the new e -tron GT and the RS e

-tron GT, like great looking things.

And finally, they're gonna have some range
and a lot of power.

So that's interesting.

The one actually probably impressed me the
most recently, I drove the Nissan Aria.

Like, damn, that's a fine little vehicle.

Yeah.

Hey buddy.

the, it almost just doesn't seem like a
Nissan.

Not, I don't mean that as it,
aesthetically and the interior wise, it's

pretty different than a lot of the stuff
that they've offered at least recently.

And it's not a bad product.

I think it's just too expensive right now
compared to other things.

but it's definitely a really unique.

they have a wide range and they have a
front wheel drive version that's in the

40s and it's kind of in line with like an
Ioniq 5, you know, or EV6 or whatever.

And like, that's pretty nice.

Plus they have these like banger ludicrous
lease deals that are happening.

And, you know, I was impressed.

I was just like...

been, I haven't looked at it too recently,
so it may have been just kind of the first

few versions when I look back there.

I mean the one I had was definitely the
whatever they called it the you know, e

-force plus platinum double triple
whatever but it was I think it was like 55

,000 but it was 400 horsepower.

Zero to 60 was quoted at 4 .8.

Killer interior drove terrific wonderful
ride and I'm like this is great like you

know if you were to buy a $55 ,000 Murano
or Pathfinder like you know, it's like CVT

Def.

you know, just, just, you know, and this
was just so much better.

so I was very impressed by that, you know,
and again, we keep, dancing around the

Koreans, but like, boy, you know, are they
up to something and are they making nice

products?

You know, Ioniq five, EV six are good.

Ioniq nine needs, some suspension work.

And, again, they're not really true
software defined vehicles yet.

There's still a lot of like
unreprogrammable buttons.

Which will just limit their ability to
update them and make them better.

But, they're mostly there.

yeah, I think there's something to be said
for like, sometimes people complain about

like Tesla and even to an extent raving
about like being too touchscreen focused

and I don't have an issue with it, but I
totally get that understanding and

definitely people abuse it.

But it is kind of funny when you look at a
lot of the high end and key of stuff where

it is kind of almost the opposite where
it's like, yeah, there's probably a few of

these buttons you guys could have gone rid
of.

And again, it's only as good as a software
program.

So I'll give you an example.

So the Rivian from day one, one of the big
complaints that I made and we all made as

an owner, I don't really pay attention to
it, but the complaints always made by

reviewers is like, what's with these
vents?

Why do I have to go to the screen to
position a point events?

Well, new update that's coming.

So the new truck.

There's presets.

So you know how you and your wife are
probably different sizes and when you get

in the car, you adjust the seat, right?

Well, my wife hates cold air blowing on
her face.

I die in a car without cold air blowing on
her face.

And when we get in the car, it's a
constant fight.

Whoever's driving, moving the vents
around.

Presets, by the way, the presets loaded to
your phone.

So my setting would be cold vents in my
face when I get in the car and then she's

in the passenger seat.

put the vents somewhere where she likes
them opposite for when her phone is in the

driver's seat.

Well, that's, that's kind of interesting
because that, yeah, it's been that way in

the test was for awhile and it's totally
tied to like whoever's profile, whoever's

driving the car and, but, but it, but it's
exactly what you're talking about.

It's something that can be changed later
with software to find, but it is, it, it

reminds me of something I did want to ask
you.

And that is I have seen so many, car
reviewers kind of complain about stuff

like that.

And I, I think that use case you're
talking about is it makes sense where it's

like, when you got the car, that is
annoying going between different drivers.

but there's been so many kinds of things
with, whether it's electric or not, but

kind of go into the touch screens too,
where, yeah, you have to kind of go in

there once to change the, where you prefer
the, the air coming out.

But then after, I mean, and maybe, yeah,
it's a little inconvenient, but once

you've done that, I have not changed it in
my car in like two years.

And do you think that there is kind of an
issue with traditional car reviewers being

able to successfully go not only to
electric vehicles, but I think.

with a lot of these vehicles.

It's like, you can't really get it in a 24
hour or even 48 hour thing.

It's like, you almost have to have it with
a week.

I mean, you can, but I think there's so
many things I've seen about like negative

reviews about cars.

I was like, well, yeah, that, that would
suck if it was like a rental car or you

had to use it for a day or two.

But if it's like your personal vehicle,
then yeah, you never changed this.

Yeah, I think there will always be some of
that.

There will always be some of that.

But I do think Kyle Connor made this point
and.

Yeah, he's great.

We've had him on before.

Yeah, I never, he made this point and he
was very just, you know, he has a very

succinct way of speaking, but he, you
know, unless he's going on for nine hours

about a battery, a thermal state, but he
just said, most car reviewers don't

understand EVs.

And it really stuck with me.

I've been having fights with people where
they're like, man, you know what I love

about the Mach E it's got an on -off
switch.

I'm like, why do you love that?

Like,

What if your phone had an on -off switch?

How stupid would that be?

The best thing in the world is you just
sit in the car and it's ready to go.

This Nissan Aria, turn it on and it would
take five seconds for the radio to wake up

and you just scream.

Yeah, it's just like, ooh.

You're just wasting your life away.

Whereas Rivian, you just jump in and go.

Tesla, you jump in and go.

Lucid, you try to.

Lucid's still like a 10 second mark.

They're getting better, but yeah.

And, but again, you read a lot of reviews
and they talk about how like, it was hard

to charge.

It's like, well, it's hard to charge
because you don't have a home charger.

Like if you're going to buy the thing, you
would have a home charger.

How fast did it charge relative to other
things in the segment once you got it

plugged in?

So I definitely agree.

There's a lot of ignorance from my
colleagues and myself too.

I'm, you know, I wish I knew more.

about electric vehicles.

think, I think that's what's been really
interesting about even watching both of

you guys on the inevitable podcast, but it
is very clear, like progressing through

the episodes.

You guys have such a deep knowledge of
cars and the car industry, and especially

like combustion vehicles, but with
electric vehicles, there's a lot of new

things.

And then just like these recent examples
of sound about like vehicle degree, like

there's a whole new universe.

And it's one thing when I see like a
journalist, like say kilowatt instead of

kilowatt hour and like, that's really
annoying.

But I am kind of curious, like, what has
been the best way for you as a kind of

traditional card journalist making this
change into the EV space and learn these

things?

Like, what do you think the other writers
or others need to do out there?

Or is it just like, there just isn't an
interest from them in doing that maybe.

Or is it just a lot to take on?

yeah, I mean, there's some of that for
sure.

but I think, you know, too few, car
journalists buy new cars too few.

you know, Ed, my cause, you know, famously
is like, I buy a used Cayenne 2017

Cayenne.

Yeah.

Support your industry, man.

Like I, I buy new cars.

and so I think.

Too few buy new cars and then of the
minority that does, too few are EVs.

And I'm not saying you have to own an EV,
but I think you really, if you're gonna

review cars for a living, get a home
charger because that's the experience that

the owners have is I wake up when I want
to with a full battery.

I used to think I had to keep my battery
charged.

Now I'm like, yeah, leave it at 20%, who
cares?

I'll charge it when I need to.

But again, that's the owner experience,
especially as you learn more.

And then again, once it's still a few
years away from mainstream, but once bi

-directional charging really gets going,
it's like, I'm leaving my battery fricking

empty because maybe someone's gonna wanna
pay me to put electricity into it for a

few minutes.

It's rapidly changing.

But anyways, yeah.

it, it is kind of a, I mean, it's, it's a
area that I'm really fascinated with and

has had a lot of discussions, especially
as someone who kind of like to worked in

the renewable space about starting like a
decade ago.

However, I think in some ways, I think
we're finally starting to see some of the

VDG stuff that's been talked about for the
last five years.

But I think part of the problem was, like
obviously Tesla kind of was one of the

first ones not necessarily to come out
with VDG, but obviously battery backup and

stuff they offered at home.

And that started like getting a lot of
gears turning and more so kind of like

Wall Street would say like, this is the
future.

We're going to give them a bunch of money.

probably not the right, right thing, but
give them a bunch of money.

And then that's where like GM and these
others.

And I, I totally get it.

I think it makes sense for a lot of these
companies, to make inroads into that and

make the investment, but it does seem like
there were a large rush to get into that

space and.

good or bad, we're finally starting to see
some of that.

But I think the inherent challenge is just
like how expensive it is to install these,

unfortunately, in homes like in our
example, our house is in the seventies and

we need to do a panel upgrade anyway.

So that's one thing.

But the vast I don't I think that's kind
of the trouble with it is like the vast

majority of people to understand that that
is part of the expense.

And like that's at least anywhere from six
to eight grand.

unfortunately to get done.

Yeah.

And then, you know, if you, GM's doing a
smart thing with their GM energy thing

where it's like, Hey, we'll give you bi
-directional charging for 7 ,500 bucks.

By the way, we'll just take your federal
tax credit and do it for free.

You know, it's like, it happens to be 7
,500.

So it's smart, but yeah, no, look, that's
the other problem with EVs.

It's a rich man's game at the moment.

And you know, there are going to be cheap
EVs coming.

But that's like all new technologies, you
know, it's not all, but you know, it's

gonna take time, but you know, eventually,
I mean, the electric automobile will

happen and people will start to see the
benefit of, you know, of spending the

money.

It's like solar panels too.

It's like, no one ever is like, man, that
was a waste of money.

It's like, I'm really glad I did that.

It was, yeah, it cost a little bit, but
it's a good thing, you know.

And so yeah, it just takes time.

And look, like any other market prices
will drop, everything will become cheaper.

But yeah, but again, like, you know, yes.

Yeah.

just so interesting about this is it's a
whole new market that is very utility

dependent.

So you have automakers who have really
never had to work with utilities have to

deal with DC fast charging and then
residential charging, which are themselves

their own beasts.

and then in addition to that, you have to
have a really good software stack to

communicate between all of these things.

which I, once again, I completely agree
with you.

I think the cost will come down and I
think we will get there.

Mm -hmm.

think that there's, I think we're on like
generation one or like the still like

alpha prototype.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Cause this, I think, I think in the
vehicle to grid space, we might be doing

the national anthem.

I don't even know if the game has started.

There's still a little bit of a ways to
go, but I'm sorry.

What else were you going to say there?

it's just, we're early, we're early, you
know, and like all things, it'll improve.

You know, one of the things I did want to
talk to you about though was, you just

bought a new car that wasn't an EV and
yeah.

I think that's really interesting to me.

And that's kind of like almost how we
personally are too.

We have an EV that is like 90 % of our day
-to -day stuff.

And it's kind of the fun, like road trip
thing, but then we have like a fun weekend

vehicle, which is our old Land Rover
Defender.

And I I'm kind of curious, like when you
look at the.

traditional car enthusiast space.

Do you see this as kind of the future of
like, yeah, most people are just going to

have an EV as a daily and then we'll still
have like a combustion vehicle for the

weekends or how do you think that kind of
plays in?

And is that a way maybe to get people to
buy into the idea of EVs who, especially

coming the car community, I've been
pretty, those that have been adamant

against it.

Yeah, I mean my purchase was more like,
the wheels were kind of in motion, like I

like to have like a little sports car.

I got a kid, I don't know if a kid needs
you on it, but it's got a back seat.

And you know, like yeah, the IONIQ 5N, but
it was like 70 grand versus, you know, I

paid like 46.

You know, could I have swung it?

Yeah, probably, but a 46 ,000 was a good
price point for me.

especially because I'm still paying off
the stupid Rivian, which is a lot more.

You know, it's just, there's really
weren't any others.

Yeah, there just weren't any other sporty
EV options at the moment.

You know, in a few years, I guarantee
there will be, you know what I mean?

So it was just sort of like, I like
interesting cars.

I like fun to drive cars.

You know, like I had an Alfa Julia and
like,

Yeah, yeah, I probably should have got the
quadrifolia because I you know, Julie was

cool I didn't really want to drive it ever
because it's kind of a nothing engine For

me, you know for a lot of people they
really like it.

It was just like I would've sugar Great
car.

Yeah great car, but you know, so You know,
is this the last gasoline car new the

gasoline car?

I'll probably ever buy.

Yeah last manual kind of probably
definitely But yeah

I bought it, I enjoy it.

That said, it has less than 400 miles on
it.

I never drive the thing.

It's just sort of when I don't have a
press car, I need another car.

I do love it, I do love it.

I drove it a little yesterday and I'm
like, God, this thing is so good.

It's just a great to drive vehicle.

So, I mean, is it just those two vehicles
you have right now?

And do you, did you kind of get that one?

a Porsche 914, but that's a long other
episode.

So one day it might go up.

Yeah, it's being restored supposedly.

Now those are pretty popular for electric
conversions.

Is that something you'd ever do?

Do you see that as blasphemy?

definitely not blasphemy.

I'm thinking about getting it from where
it's living right now and giving it to a

friend and just getting an EV out of it.

Yeah.

I'm thinking about that.

So, but no, I don't, I don't, I don't see
it as particularly, I mean, it's a 1970,

like nine 14, like, no, the, the, the, the
80 horsepower, 1 .7 liter, like, what a

precious thing.

You know, like it's, it was, it was a, you
know, it was a commodity car that happened

to be a minute and two seater.

I mean, to be honest with you, that's why
I've kind of been open to it.

It's like, there's so many beautiful cars
that just had terrible power trains.

now for that, it kind of works because it
was so small and light anyway, but that,

that is kind of where I do think like
converting some of these old ones is kind

of cool.

Like if it didn't have some amazing V8 or
something else, like it keeps it on the

road, which is good for the environment.

And for a lot of people who may have like
a sentimental connection or got from

someone else in the family, it's less
maintenance and just kind of a great

option for them.

I think it's fine.

I think my problem with most EV
conversions is that they're level two

conversions, so you can't fast charge
them.

So they're just kind of like around town
toys.

so you would want to road trip one?

Yeah.

option.

It's just, they're not fully there.

It's just like, like again, I do like an
EV powertrain, but what I think when I'm

learning, I really like software defined
vehicles.

I really like like the wild innovation,
you know?

So, but you know, again, you know, if
electrifying it adds to the driving

experience, great.

If it doesn't, eh, keep it gas, who cares?

But I don't really, to be,

Really honest, I don't really think about
it.

I don't care what you do with your own
car.

It's your car.

Do what you want.

It's the new ones that I'm worried about.

So.

So kind of with that, I realized we're
kind of coming on in our time.

I just want to say one, thanks again for
coming on.

This has been great today and a fun
conversation.

A lot of different, a lot of different
parts of the EV space right now.

What, I you've mentioned software defined
vehicles and that's something you talk

about a lot, but is there anything that we
haven't discussed today that, you really

do enjoy about electric vehicles that kind
of like stands out or has been something

that you just didn't expect to enjoy as
much.

Yeah, you know, I asked, I was talking to
some, some, I drove the, Macan via

prototype and I was talking with the
Porsche guys and I said, you know, you're

German engineers.

You must have a word for yes, you're
adding weight, but at the same time, the

center of gravity is lowering and that
improves performance by blah amount.

They go, yes, it's the often faffing or
whatever they said.

And, and so, and again, maybe, you know,
the Aria kind of, we did cover it a little

bit, but like.

Just going EV, if you think about the
Nissan Murano, like, mediocre is a mean

term, but a middling vehicle, middle of
the pack, well, just going electric, wow,

suddenly it's just great to drive, the
ride quality was insane, it feels

luxurious, it's quiet, it's smooth,
there's no horrid CVT or whatever bad

transmission solution that economy cars
get, or mainstream cars get tasked with,

you really have this like,

instantly torquey things.

So it's like, just like RAV4s and
everything going electric.

Like I said, like the Prius, man, if that
was a fully V, it'd be a fantastic

vehicle.

So it's just like your average car is
gonna get so much better.

And then, you know.

funny you say that because, one of the
things we talked about in our, previous

episode was about like the challenges that
allow these older brands, like, especially

the Germans have like kind of around the
badge engineering when you have the new

McCann and then there's the Audi
equivalent on it.

Like their big thing was like, well, we
flipped the motor around too.

So that kind of gives you more of the
traditional Porsche feeling of that.

And I haven't driven either.

So I can't say for sure when or the other,
but do you think that that is.

something that a lot of these kinds of
brands are struggling with or anything

that to kind of make that change to like
to differentiate more since so many of

them have kind of gone to the skateboard
low gravity design across brands.

I would say, A, I've driven both of them.

I can't talk about the Audi yet.

But I would say you look at the Volkswagen
group and you look at, let's say the, it's

the MLB Evo platform.

Okay, well, what's that?

Well, Audi A4 is MLB Evo 2 and so is the
Lamborghini Urus.

These guys are good at differentiating a
common platform.

They're really good at it.

and, I'm not worried about that at all.

turning the motor around.

I had some marketing horseshit, but, the,
they did do an excellent job making the

new Macan EV drive and feel just like
you're driving.

I would say even less of McCone, but like
a Cayenne, it really does feel like a

Porsche SUV.

Very, wow.

You know, so they're, they're a very good
job at that.

And it makes more power and it's quieter
and it drives better.

All the good EV stuff.

So no, I'm not worried about that at all.

These guys are the master of that.

I worry.

Cause I think one of the other examples we
talked about was how phenomenal of a job

key and Hyundai have kind of hopped on the
wave of the electric electric cars,

because no one ever talked about the roar
of a Kia.

And now you have fun.

Kia is to drive.

But it.

was even like a Genesis, like what sucked
about Genesis was the powertrain.

Well, make them all electric.

Great.

But yeah, no, I think maybe I worry about
like when autonomy becomes more of a

thing.

Well, you know, how is the Volkswagen
autonomous software gonna, is it gonna

drive like a Volkswagen?

Or is the Porsche gonna drive like a
Porsche?

You know, like.

You know, who knows, we'll see.

But I think as far as like, yeah, like,
you know, differentiating, you can totally

do it, you know?

And I mean, you even see it with, I can't
talk about this out.

But anyways, you can do a lot with
software where you can radically change a

vehicle with just software.

You know what I mean?

I mean, I'll put it like this.

The Q6 and the SQ6, which have very
different power outputs,

Same hardware, it's just a software.

Software says pull more power out of the
battery, spin the motors faster with this

much throttle input.

That makes it an SQ6.

Well, I think that's about as good of a
place to end it on today, Jonny.

Thank you so much.

That's been a great conversation and we'll
have to have you get on soon

That wraps up this episode of the great
connections podcast.

We hope you enjoyed our conversation with
Jonny Liberman, where we delved into the

transition to electric vehicles, the
current state of EV charging and the

fascinating world of software defined
vehicles.

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