Good morning grid connections listeners.

And for those of you who may be listening
for the first time, this is the grid

connections podcast.

This is the show where we unravel the
complexities of electric transportation,

renewable energy, and our electrical power
grid that ties all of them together.

I'm your host Chase.

And today we have a special guest joining
us, Jason Goldfarb.

He's a partner at the law firm, Falcon,
Rappaport and Berkman.

I think I already know what you're
wondering, because usually we're speaking

with engineers or maybe people in the
automotive or renewable energy industry.

And well, Jason actually is.

He has a very interesting, unique skillset
coming from actually the real estate and

the telecom industry.

Believe it or not, this is actually all
seriously needed in the electric vehicle

charging infrastructure space.

And today we speak with him about what
he's doing to help people who are building

new facilities and charging locations
really maximize the potential.

He shares his insights on the latest
trends, challenges, and innovation shaping

the future of grid connectivity, including
from the integration of renewable energy

sources to the electric vehicle charging
landscape.

We'll delve into the critical issues and
what can be done to simplify and help

guarantee much more consistent and longer
lasting charging hubs.

You can find more details on Jason and his
law firm with links in today's show notes

as well.

But before we dive in, we have a special
request for our listeners.

If you find this episode or any Grid
Connections podcast episode enlightening

and thought provoking, we encourage you to
share it with at least one other person

you believe would enjoy and benefit from
our conversation.

Together, let's spread the knowledge and
foster a community of engaged listeners

passionate about the energy revolution and
clean transportation.

So without further ado, this is the Grid
Connections podcast with Jason Goldfarb.

Enjoy.

Thank you.

It's my pleasure to be here.

Really appreciate it.

I'm happy to be on the podcast.

So I'll tell you a little bit about my
background.

So for almost the last 25 years or so,
I've been involved in the real estate

infrastructure space.

I got my start in the wireless
telecommunications industry.

And I've been doing that work, whether it
relates to things like...

cell phone towers and rooftop
installations for the cell phone business.

I've worked for a couple of different
companies that also invested in the

infrastructure as well.

So in addition to working in the wireless
telecommunication space, I've also had

experience with outdoor advertising,
solar, wind, other things like that.

And in terms of getting into the EV
charging space, our firm decided not too

long ago and

a push from me, frankly, that the EV
infrastructure space might be a good

practice area to try and get into.

I've always been into cars since the day I
came out of the womb.

You can tell by the poster I've got going
in the background here.

So I've always been really into that.

Always been into real estate.

As an attorney, I've always focused my
practice on the transactional

to what you would call the regular
infrastructure industry to what's going on

right now in the EV infrastructure
industry.

And so making that switch was sort of
natural.

Still doing some work on the telecom side
of things and with solar and without the

advertising, but the EV infrastructure
space is really so much more interesting.

And there are so many opportunities for
business, for improvement.

for education and so on and so forth.

So, we decided to go in full speed ahead
and to use the non-electric version of

this, but basically we've been firing on
all 12 cylinders, going really head first

into this.

Yeah, and I appreciate you kind of sharing
that with everyone.

I think what's really interesting is just
for more context, we originally connected

on LinkedIn.

That's how I kind of came across you.

And I'd even seen some of your posts and
other things, I guess, in just similar

spheres.

But when we started talking, I think what
was interesting, and I kind of had already

known this, but didn't really fully
appreciate it, was how while the

technology that may be going in the ground
is new,

or even not new, just different.

The actual implementation is very similar
to things that have already been around,

especially in the real estate space for
quite a while.

So could you share a little bit about that
and maybe just some of the challenges that

for those who are new to the space might
not have been expecting.

Right, so that's totally on point and very
insightful.

I mean that in a really good way.

That's something actually that a lot of
people do not necessarily pick up on.

So if you were to look back through
history with the way that the wireless

telecommunications industry was 20 or 25
years ago, and you would see that the way

things were done then and how things are
being done now.

and you would look at the EV
infrastructure industry and see the way

that things are being done now and put on
your time travel lens and see how things

might look in about 20 or 25 years from
now, I bet you you're going to see a ton

of similarities.

So in that respect, I'll give you a couple
of examples.

So when the wireless industry first got
started,

you had a situation where towers and
building installations were pretty much

put just about anywhere where you would
find somebody who might be willing to have

that infrastructure on their property.

That's almost about as far as people went
with trying to figure out where to put it.

They didn't necessarily have the data and
the analytics yet.

They didn't have a massive customer base
yet.

But they started to think, oh, it might
make sense that in this particular city or

in this particular location, we might need
to put equipment down.

And they did that.

And unfortunately, a lot of times when
they did that, they did not necessarily do

their homework.

They did not necessarily do their due
diligence.

They didn't always pick the most ideal
locations for the equipment.

They didn't realize that in some of the
places where they chose to put the

equipment, they

that they might run into issues with
access or with maintenance.

None of those things kind of like went
into the thought process.

And at some point in time, the wireless
telecommunications industry really started

to realize not doing these things created
some problems.

So I'll give you a hypothetical example.

Hypothetically, if you entered into a
contract with somebody that didn't have

the authority to sign the contract,

or let's say you entered into a contract
with someone that didn't actually own the

property where you were putting the
equipment.

By the way, I'm giving you real world
examples.

you say the way you said hypothetical.

I kind of feel like you're saying how they
say in the old like cop shows the names

have been changed to protect the innocent
or what?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

names.

Yeah, we're definitely not going to do
that.

But so if you didn't do those things, or
I'll give you another example.

Let's say that you didn't do a title
search and discover that there might be

some issues with the property where you
were going to put the equipment down, or

you didn't get a set of corporate
documents from the person who signed the

documents to make sure that they had the
authority to sign those documents.

Or I'll give you one other example, or
let's say you didn't do a survey to figure

out where your land and where your
property is located, because let's just

say that the survey, if you had done it,
may have given you an inkling that perhaps

the piece of property you chose for the
tower might be legally landlocked.

So leaving aside practical issues as to
whether or not you could get a truck in

there for maintenance.

If you were legally landlocked and your
neighbors decided that they didn't like

you and decided to put up a fence, how are
you getting to your tower?

The answer is you're not.

And what's your recourse?

And the answer is you have not.

So what happened was that the
telecommunications industry as a whole

started to realize that we made some
mistakes, at least by deploying the

infrastructure that way.

without looking into that stuff.

I am seeing that kind of stuff happen left
and right now in the EV infrastructure

industry.

And it's being driven by a whole bunch of
things.

I think in terms of not doing the due
diligence and not doing the homework

piece, people are cheap and they don't
wanna spend the money to do it.

But it's sort of...

similar to not wanting to buy a health
insurance policy if you're an otherwise

healthy person.

Because if you're a healthy person, you
don't really need health insurance.

What do you need it for?

How often are you gonna get sick?

But when you do get sick, now you have the
policy, and you know what happens if you

don't have the insurance policy, now you
end up with a bill with hundreds of

thousands of dollars.

So people aren't thinking about it that
way until they really need it, and then

they kind of have that light bulb moment
and they say, oh boy.

What did we just do here?

I'm starting to see a lot of that and I'm
trying to prevent people from doing that.

I'm trying to prevent my clients from
making some of those mistakes.

Some of those basic things are really
severely lacking and that's part of why

you are seeing so much trouble.

I'll give you another example.

I think another reason why we're running
into problems that in terms of...

Let's just say right now, again,
hypothetically, we didn't have those

problems that I just mentioned.

Let's just say that they did their
homework and so they did a title search

and they did a survey and they asked for
the corporate documents and they made sure

everybody had authority to sign everything
so you had none of those problems.

But now you have an issue where you put
your charging in and now it needs to be

maintained or it breaks and you don't have
any language in the contract that covers

who is supposed to be responsible for
that.

Or if you do have language in the contract
that says who's supposed to be responsible

for it, there's no teeth to it.

So there is no incentive to be accountable
because nothing bad will happen to you.

The easiest example I can give is that if
you're supposed to pay rent by the first

of the month and you don't pay it, what
happens?

Unless you have something in the contract
that says you're in trouble for not paying

on the first of the month, nothing
happens, right?

And if all the contract says is you're
bad,

What happens?

Still nothing.

If it says you have to pay it by the
fifth, what happens?

You can pay it by the fifth, but there's
no penalty if you don't pay it by the

fifth.

Are you going to pay it by the fifth?

Sometimes, but probably not.

Right?

Why do you need to?

So we're starting to see those kinds of
problems in some of the contracts also,

where you have language that should be in
there that's missing.

It doesn't say who's responsible for
maintenance or if it says who's

responsible for maintenance, it doesn't
say how quickly they have to roll a truck.

It doesn't say within what time frame that
they're obligated to provide spare parts.

It doesn't say what they're supposed to do
if people need to get on the phone and

call somebody.

It has none of that stuff in there.

So if the contract is missing some of
those things and then let's say you have a

charger in the ground that's broken and
it's not being fixed and you have no

number where you're

or even if you have a number where you're
supposed to call somebody, there is no

metric or timeframe within which they're
supposed to respond.

And then even if there is that timeframe
or that metric that you use to determine

when they're supposed to respond, if
there's no penalty if they don't respond

in time, then you get the mess that we
have.

And so we're starting to see a lot of
those things.

So on a positive note, I think...

What started to happen way back when in
the wireless industry is they begun to

realize that we need to clean up our
contracts because we need to have

appropriate language in there.

We need to have some teeth to some of the
penalties.

We need to incentivize accountability.

We have to lay out so that way it's clear
for everybody who is responsible for what.

We have to make sure that we do our due
diligence and we do our homework.

So that way we make sure that we're
putting the assets.

in a safe place to begin with, in addition
to all the other stuff that we have to do.

As that stuff starts to happen, the
business and the industry starts to mature

and it starts to improve.

If you think about right now, what was
your cell phone like 20 or 25 years ago?

We know the answer.

It was a service with Spotty.

You couldn't take...

a lot longer.

That was about the only pro.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, right.

all these apps that were just sucking
energy out of the phones.

But the service was spotty, it wasn't so
great.

You couldn't go from one network to the
other, right?

The equipment kind of worked, didn't
always work.

You had frequently, you had outages and
you had all sorts of problems.

But right now, you pick up your phone, it
works.

You make a phone call, you can talk to
somebody across the world, it works.

If you have a problem with it, you know
what you do.

You call customer service and for the most
part, they're going to be able to solve

your problem.

If they can't solve your problem, what do
they do?

They'll send you a new phone.

Now I'm not saying that people should send
you a new EV.

That might be a little bit ridiculous, but
you get the idea.

There's something built in to deal with
some of those issues.

where those things weren't being done.

And when you add in the rush to do the
deployment, and when you add in the fact

that there were financial incentives to
deploy the infrastructure, but it didn't

come with similar incentives for uptime
and maintenance.

you ended up with a situation where
chargers were going in the ground where

they didn't really need to go or shouldn't
have gone in the first place.

People were paid money just to deploy
them.

Then they weren't being used.

And when they're not being used, then
they're being ignored.

When they're being ignored, they're being
vandalized.

And when they're being vandalized, they
don't work.

And because the chargers were in places
where nobody is using them and it's

expensive to fix them, the company that
put it there doesn't want to spend money

to fix it because why should they?

Why put money into an underperforming?

real estate asset.

If you have a shopping center and the
neighborhood isn't so good anymore and

people are not coming into the shopping
center and nobody's coming in there and

your tenants are starting to stop paying
rent because they can't afford to do it

anymore because business stinks, as a
property owner, what are you gonna do with

that piece of property?

You're probably gonna look to unload it,
but you're certainly not gonna invest more

money into an underperforming asset.

Right.

So the infrastructure companies are kind
of looking at this the same way.

If it's an underperforming asset, we're
not going to spend money to fix something

that it's not going to give us a return.

And on top of that, they don't even have
an obligation to put money into it anyway.

So when you put all that stuff together,
you almost have like a perfect storm.

For sure, and I mean, already this has
brought up so many questions and just so

many, yeah, there's so many topics.

So I think even just for people who are
listening, let's take it one kind of step

back.

So you've already kind of built a really
good foundation to show how similar it is

to the traditional wireless energy
industry.

Are there any differences that you could
share or anything that you've noticed

about working in this industry that's
really stood out to you?

Yeah, I would say some of the stuff that
for sure, a major difference is I would

say number one would be the ubiquity.

In the sense that right now, just about
every person that you know has a cell

phone, certainly in developed countries.

Who doesn't have a cell phone?

Everybody has a cell phone, right?

So...

In the EV industry, you don't have that
right now.

You still have a very small percentage of
drivers out there that have switched over

to electric vehicles.

Percentage-wise, it's a much smaller group
of the overall, let's say, vehicle

population.

As opposed to right now, every person that
needs to communicate essentially has a

cell phone.

Either they have an iPhone or they have an
Android.

leaving aside the few others that are
left, but they're so small that they're

almost non-existent.

So everybody has one.

So that's certainly something that's very
different.

I would say also in terms of the amount of
the infrastructure and the size of it is

also very different.

For the most part in the wireless
industry, you have very large cell phone

towers where you have...

large installations on top of buildings.

We'll just use that as an example.

If you go, let's say we were to look in
the solar business, rooftop installations,

but then massive solar farms.

So the size of the infrastructure, for the
most part, it's big and bigger.

There's some smaller examples of that if
you do like distributed antenna systems.

You might have just small antennas in a
couple of different places.

You might have what they refer to as
backhaul, which is generally just an

antenna to just supplementing, but for the
most part, they're larger installations.

When you get into the EV business, you're
a little bit all over the place.

You might have an individual charger in
one place, and that might be the only

thing that anybody put in.

You might have, let's say, a shopping
center where you have four or five of

them.

You might have brand new construction,
let's say a brand new apartment building

where they're building a building where
they want it to be as technically up to

date as possible and they might put in a
whole bunch of it.

Or you might have a parking facility or a
college campus or something like that

where you might see it on a larger scale
or let's say in the fleet industry.

There are some pretty well-known companies
that have switched over their fleets or in

the process of switching over their fleets
to go all electric.

Probably the two biggest ones that
everybody probably knows about or if they

don't know about would be like Domino's
Pizza.

Most of their delivery vehicles right now
are electric or let's just use Amazon

because they're doing electric vehicles
for a lot of their last mile delivery.

So they're doing that on a very large
scale.

So you really run the gamut.

in terms of just a little bit of EV
charging, all the way up to really fancy

stuff.

And the other thing that you see in the EV
industry that's kind of different is that

in terms of charging, you can have an
individual charger that could be in

somebody's home, could be what we refer to
as a level one.

It doesn't even have to be a level two
because you can get away with hours that

it takes to charge overnight.

You don't need anything that sophisticated
in your house.

other than something a little bit better
than your standard plug, but that's the

easiest visual for people to understand.

We go all the way up to what you would
call DCFCs, level three, fast charging,

where they can charge up your Porsche in
15 minutes.

You really need to have very specific
infrastructure to be able to handle that.

So we do run the gamut in terms of the
type of infrastructure, and the industry

is still at a point in time where what you
deploy really needs to match the use case

of where you're putting it.

In the real estate world, what are the
three most important things?

It's location, and location.

And you want to make sure that the
infrastructure that you're putting in

matches to the use case.

The type of EV infrastructure that you

in a major mobility corridor along the
highway is not the same kind of thing that

you might put in your single-family home.

For sure.

But when it comes to the telecom industry,
it's pretty consistent in terms of the

stuff that's going in the ground.

There are towers, there are building
installations, and that's for the most

part kind of what you see everywhere.

So that's something that's certainly
different.

There's a greater variety of the
infrastructure and the infrastructure use

cases in the EV industry.

then you might see in something like the
wireless telecommunications industry or

what you might see in the solar business
or you might see in the outdoor

advertising business.

Outdoor advertising, for the most part
you're talking billboards in very dense

neighborhoods.

You're going to be putting in more of them
assuming that the laws allow you to do it.

In other places, you might only have a
sign up every couple of miles along a

highway,

The type of infrastructure that you're
putting in really, really varies in the EV

world, really depending upon the location
and really depending upon the use case.

That's certainly something that's
different.

Interesting and that does make sense So I
appreciate that kind of the context of

where those differences are in the spaces
And I think that makes sense to a lot of

the listeners too my next question is can
you I mean There's quite a few different

questions out right now, but can you walk
through what would be like?

Maybe just a normal deal Like is it at
least for ten years yada and I can all

that stuff or?

Yeah, can you?

so many layers to that question, Chase.

Oh my God.

Okay, so the answer is, is that I wouldn't
say that there isn't something that you

would consider, that I would consider from
my perspective to be a typical deal, in

the sense that we are very much still in
the Wild West stage, in the way that

20 plus years ago in the wireless telecom
industry, we're in the Wild West stage.

And by that I mean is that when they first
started doing that you would see leases,

you would see licenses.

I know we're getting into a little bit of
legal terminology but for the listeners,

there is a difference between a lease
agreement and a license agreement and

let's just use the example of an easement
agreement.

Those are all very different types of
legal structures.

So you would kind of see things where that
was a little bit all over the place.

What you would also see is all over the
place would be payment structures.

Are they paying rent?

I can tell you the one thing that didn't
come in the wireless telecom industry, but

if it was out there, I have not seen it
yet, is some sort of revenue share.

I guarantee you that if you would go to
any one of the...

Let's say you had a tower on your property
and you went to the wireless company that

was...

leasing the space for the tower on your
property, and you said, I want some kind

of a revenue share from all the customers
that are coming through your antennas,

they would look at you like you're crazy.

Now they do some form of revenue share if
they sometimes bring in additional

tenants.

So this gets us a little bit into the
nitty gritty of this, but just for

purposes of example, if you had a tower
company that was leasing the space for the

tower, their business model is to bring

other wireless tenants onto the tower.

So they might pay you, let's say I'll use
stupid numbers, they'll pay you $1,000 a

month to put the tower on the ground, but
then they in turn might make separate

agreements with three or four different
wireless companies who will then put their

equipment on the tower, who will then pay
rent to the tower company, not necessarily

to you as the owner.

You as the owner, you're still only
getting your $1,000 a month.

You might be able to work out a revenue
share with them.

It's kind of like a sublease.

Yeah, interesting.

you might be able to work something out
with them, well, oh, if you bring an

additional tenant, you're gonna have to
pay me an extra $100 a month.

But the reason why I'm giving you this
example is that if you went to the company

and said, I want some revenue in my pocket
based on the traffic that you are

generating and the money that you are
making from your cell phone customers who

are using that tower, they would look at
you like, they would tell you to go pound

sand.

They're not gonna do that with you.

Now, in the EV industry right now, that is
one of the more common business models is

some form of revenue sharing for the
people that are coming in to use the

charger on your property to charge up.

Whether or not over time that will be a
sustainable model, I don't know.

It could be, it could be not.

The one thing that I'm not seeing so much
of right now are EV charging companies

paying rent to the property owner for the
privilege

putting the charger down on their
property.

So not necessarily a revenue share, but
hypothetically we'll pay you $100 a month

so we can put your charger here.

And then the infrastructure companies is
getting all the money.

So in that same vein, besides seeing those
different business and payment structures,

I've seen leases, I've seen licenses, I've
seen easement agreements.

all over the place.

I've seen combinations of rent, I've seen
combinations of revenue share and there's

a company out there who we will not name
doesn't pay any rent.

And their game is that when we put your
stuff there, our stuff's really good and

it's going to be great advertising by the
way for us too, don't tell anybody, but

also for you and people will see that you
have this high quality charging equipment

on your property and we will bring you
more customers.

And so by the more customers coming into
your shopping center or to your business

or to your parking facility, you will in
turn be making more money because they're

gonna be coming when they see our
equipment, but they don't pay rent.

So the models are really all over the
place and it's really dependent on what

the use case is.

So let's just use the example that I gave
you.

In the situation where they're not paying
rent,

If you don't have a business where you can
in turn make money from the extra volume

of vehicles that are now coming into your
property to charge up, are you likely to

accept zero rent as an exchange for
signing a lease and giving the company the

privilege of putting their equipment
there?

Probably not.

If you're not sure whether or not you're
going to consistently make money from more

people coming in.

Might you turn around and go to the
infrastructure company and say, I want

some rent or I want some revenue share.

Now, by the way, there are companies that
will do that with you.

They might be more apt to haggle and work
those things out with you.

But again, it's going to be dependent upon
what your use case is.

I'll give you one other just to sort of
turn the entire thing on its head.

Let's just say that you're an apartment
building and you want to be able to

provide this as an amenity to your
tenants.

You might do that.

You may charge your tenants across the
board.

Everybody in the building might have to
pay a little bit more in monthly

maintenance because you're doing that.

You might decide you only want to charge
the people in the building, you'll have

EVs, a little bit of extra money for the
privilege of being able to do that.

So you might be comfortable without
accepting rent or revenue share from the

infrastructure company because your
tenants are gonna say, this is the

greatest building in the world.

I get the charge up here, this is awesome.

and it's really cheap and I love it.

We have great rules and we have no fights
over who's using the charging.

So again, you really, you have to look at
this.

And I think that my long-winded way of
answering this question, Chase, is that

you have to look at this from a whole
bunch of different directions.

You have to look at the legal structures
to see if it makes sense.

You have to look at the business model to
see if it makes sense.

You have to know your tenants and your
customers.

to see if it makes sense.

You need to know if there's sufficient
volume in the neighborhood where you're

living in order to put the chargers in.

One of my favorite examples of this, and
we've all seen it, the picture of the

charger on a road in the middle of nowhere
where there's nothing around you except

for mountains.

What's that doing there?

Who's charging up over there?

So you need to know your local market and
whether or not it's going to make sense

for you to spend money on putting the
infrastructure in a place.

Will people come?

Will people use it?

Will you make money from it?

These are all sorts of questions that
people are asking on all sides of the

equation and it's not as simple as, oh
this is great, we'll just put a charger in

and people will come.

It's not that simple.

as someone who has done a lot of EV road
trips It is really nice when you do find

that random one in the mountains because
sometimes that saves your butt but yes, it

doesn't seem like it's a long-term
successful business if it's like one

person every few days, but I Think one
thing I want to kind of ask you with You

did mention kind of koi that the there is
this company that doesn't charge rent Does

this company use?

or yeah, it doesn't pay rent.

Is this company, are you familiar if they
use a lot of data to present to these

people as to why they should be doing it
to kind of make their use case?

so this is one of the great mysteries to
which I am not necessarily privy to just

yet.

I would love to know a little more of
exactly how they in fact pitch this.

I can say anecdotally based on stuff that
I have seen, I have some idea about how

they're doing their pitch.

They're doing their pitch in a couple of
ways.

Part of their pitch is we will bring you
more customers.

Whether or not they share that data with
you, I suspect not.

That's number one.

Number two, the other thing that they do
is that they also promise a very easy

contracts process.

And their contracts are very simple.

I'll use that word.

They're very simple.

And simple can be good, except if you go
back to the example that I gave you before

of the person that chose not to get health
insurance.

What do you do when there's a problem?

When there's a problem,

You may not have anybody you can call.

For the most part, the equipment always
works all the time.

But then sometimes it doesn't.

And then when it doesn't, what's your
recourse if it doesn't?

How do you deal with that?

How quickly do they have to roll a truck?

How quickly are they obligated to fix it?

So and so forth.

So those things would be missing.

So it's an easy contract process.

It's an easy sell because you're not gonna
need to mark it up.

They probably don't market up very much,
if at all, so it's an easy sell.

That becomes one of those other issues,
and that is the way in which they're

pitching that.

One of the things, and in fact, I actually
have this on a slide that I'm using for a

CLE that I'm going to be doing next month.

One of the things that I try also to
explain to people is that unless you as

the property

You are purchasing it for yourself.

And you are independently handling all of
the maintenance and all of the upkeep and

everything else.

And essentially the infrastructure company
is selling you the equipment and now

you're using it on your property, much
like you might use, I don't know, air

conditioning equipment on your property.

Like it's yours, you deal with it.

Yes, we might have the maintenance and a
service contract, so we'll come and fix

it, but it basically it's your problem,
for the most part, right?

So unless you're doing that, you're not
necessarily going to own the data and the

analytics that you are getting from all
the people that are coming and using.

Now if you're putting that, let's say,
into an apartment building, you pretty

much know who all the people are in your
apartment building that are using it.

You might wanna know how often are people
using it, who are using it the most often,

how much time are they spending on
charging?

Do you have a tenant that is consistently,
let's say you have a shared charger that

they're consistently not moving their cars
when they're supposed to?

So you might wanna know some of that data
and some of those analytics, and some of

that stuff might be shared with you, but
it might not be.

And that might be completely dependent on,
once again, what is in your contract?

What does it say about whether or not
they're going to share that data with you?

How much of that information are they
going to provide to you?

So for the most part, you don't get access
to the data in general with any of the

infrastructure companies, they're getting
it.

And especially for the...

sense.

I was just kind of curious.

I didn't think they would maybe be giving
very concrete numbers, but I could say

like, this is what we're seeing average,
what we predict may be average traffic and

the average consumer, if they wanted to
get really is like of who drives an EV or

buys our products makes X numbers from
what we can tell.

I do also have just another follow-up
question in this company that we keep

alluding to.

Is this company, I think I know who we're
talking about, but is this company also

one that has their own essentially team
that goes around fixing these?

Because that has been talking about
maintenance, that has been one of the big

issues is there's only a handful of
charging companies that actually has their

own teams, most of the time they have to
hire it out to local engineers.

Right, so some of them do their own
maintenance, some of them are hiring

outside companies to do that.

If you as a property owner are working
with any one of these EV infrastructure

companies, you would hope that they're
going to provide you with a couple of

things.

You were talking about your point earlier
about are there cars in the neighborhood,

will people need it, will they use it, and
so on and so forth.

That becomes really relevant if you are
making it available to the public.

I would hope that the infrastructure
company, as part of their pitch to

convince you to put their charging
equipment on your property, is explaining

to you, here's how we came up with why we
decided that we think your property is a

good candidate for this.

I suspect in some instances, with some of
the less reputable companies, maybe

they're not providing that information, or
if they're providing that information,

they're not providing the whole picture,
because...

It's not outside the realm of
possibilities that some people were

focused more on the sale and the land grab
and to get the infrastructure in the

ground somewhere, anywhere, it doesn't
matter.

The really good companies, I would hope,
are sharing that information as part of

their pitch to convince you that it makes
sense for it to go into your property.

By the way, on the flip side of that, if
it turns out that your property is not a

good location for this, you would think
that they would move on and go to somebody

else.

but I'll leave that out there for the
moment.

So that's gonna be part of what goes into
that.

One of the things that's really good for
the companies that do everything, and

there are companies that do everything,
they do the charging, they do the

vehicles, they do the maintenance, they do
the upkeep, they do everything, they

really have the ability to have consistent
control over it.

And because of that, they also have access
to all of the data.

So also when it comes time to figure out
where might we need other charging

infrastructure, they probably know better
than anybody else on the planet where it

makes sense to put their stuff.

Because not only do they have the cars,
but they also have the chargers, they have

the maintenance, they do everything.

They have the data for everything.

They know how quickly, how much time it
takes to repair in a particular place,

they know how often you have problems,
they know where the cars go.

where they stop, how much time they're in
them, so on and so forth.

You can slice it and dice it as many ways
as you want, which by the way, is the

exact way in which the telecommunications
companies determined where to put their

towers and their infrastructure.

How do they do that?

They know where their customers are.

They know where they need it.

And based on that, they decide where to
put it.

What's happened a lot, and this is one of
the things where we go back to sort of our

sameness and differences with the industry
is that in a lot of instances, a lot of

the early infrastructure was just put
wherever.

By the way, not necessarily in a bad way
either because you didn't have the data at

the beginning to know where to go.

Now we're so much better at this.

Now we have millions of these cars on the
roads.

Now we know where they are.

There are companies beside the EV
infrastructure companies, there are

companies that...

specialize in providing this data and
making it available to you so you can

figure it out.

If you think that your corner is a good
spot for it, there are all sorts of

applications out there that can tell you
where the other charges are in the

neighborhood, who owns them, how far away
they are, how many people in the vicinity

own EVs, what are the likelihood that
people will come and charge up at your

location versus the one that's down the
block.

Do you need one at your location?

Is the one that's down the block or the
one that's?

in the other direction enough for all the
people in the neighborhood and maybe you

don't need to spend the money and to go
through the trouble to put it on your

property.

So we have more of that information that's
available and I think what will start to

happen is that over time as more of the
data becomes accessible, leaving aside the

company that keeps it to themselves, but
as more of the data starts to become

accessible, we'll be able to make smarter
decisions about where to put the

infrastructure in the first place.

If we make smarter decisions about where
to put the infrastructure in the first

place, we will have fewer and fewer
situations where it's not working, it's

not being maintained, and we're not going
to have the horror stories that we have of

people rolling up the chargers that just
don't work for all the reasons we spoke

about before.

Right.

And that makes a lot of sense.

What's interesting is we've had a couple
of people on as guests who have kind of

just said, you know what, uh, having the
data is great, but it's the actual

building process, the permitting, all this
stuff is taking so long.

And there is kind of just, it's just good
to get it in the ground.

Cause once you have on the ground, then
you can go back and update it later.

Is that you think still a worthy, it
sounds like you bring an interesting

opinion and kind of experience with it,
but you disagree with that a little bit.

A little bit.

There is certainly something to be said.

If you build it, they will come.

It's one of the greatest movie lines of
all time anyway.

I mean, come on, Field of Dreams.

Any boy that's into baseball will know
that if you build it, they will come.

So there is something to be said for that.

On the other hand, it does take a lot of
time to permit, to make sure that it's

zoned, to get your electricity in.

do the actual construction work, to get
all the equipment that you need.

So that stuff does take time.

And I think because it does take time,
that goes back to why it is so critical to

do the homework in advance and to make
sure that you're putting the equipment in

a place where it makes sense to put it.

So, you know, the example I gave you
before of somebody not doing their

homework and not looking at title and a
survey and all of that other stuff.

I have a real world example of that where
somebody did not do that, put a charger in

somewhere where they were legally
landlocked, and once they got legally

landlocked and that fence went up and
people could not use their charger, they

had 18 months worth of work that went up
and went poof.

You tell me, what do you think would have
made more sense?

Build it so they will come?

Yeah, sure.

Get it in the ground.

Get it, and then we'll worry about the
problems afterwards.

Or should we have spent a little bit of
money and time in looking into this

property and possibly discovering that we
were legally landlocked and maybe we

should have gone, I don't know, across the
street, down the block, or maybe not in

this vicinity to begin with?

So it does cut both ways.

It does cut both ways.

Well, and I think the way you're
approaching it makes a lot of sense.

And I can also see the argument like, OK,
maybe due to supply chain, we can't get

everything we want.

But let's just get this location, get the
stuff we can, and then come back later and

do it.

But I.

if you've done all your homework to
determine that this location is an ideal

place, then it might make sense to wait,
but for you to take the time that it needs

to take because when you're done doing all
of that, you will have a perfect place

where the charging is needed, where it
will be utilized, where it will be used,

and where everybody will consistently...

make money from it.

One other way that I think is helpful to
think about this, if I gave you the

example of one company that did not do its
homework and just put their chargers down

wherever and grab land and figured we'll
deal with the problems afterwards versus a

company that took its time, was methodical
about this, actually thought about where

it made sense to put it, did their
homework.

discovered that this location is no good.

This location might be great, but the
person that wants to sign this contract

with me can't.

So I don't think we're doing anything with
him.

We'll go to a neighbor.

And so the company that did that or does
that and then puts the infrastructure in

the ground, if you had a choice between
investing in that company versus the other

one, where would you put your money?

I know where I would put my money.

All right.

So, God, I've got so many questions for
you.

And I'm trying to be respectful of our
time here.

But the variable of time is obviously the
big one we talk about a lot when it comes

to these installations.

And we've talked about it today.

What do you find?

And maybe it's location and site specific.

But what have you found to be the biggest
variables in the implementation process?

And maybe the biggest variables people
aren't expecting?

that can kind of trip them up with that.

Yeah, I would say the number one mistake
is not doing your due diligence and not

doing your homework.

I know I keep harping on that, but that's
just huge.

That just saves you so much time and
energy and money in the long run.

And it helps to have a long game focus.

So that is for sure number one.

As a practical matter, what can be the
biggest problem?

It could almost be anything.

It could be your zoning process, it could
be your permitting process.

It could be working with your local
utility company to get it done.

It could be the negotiation of your
contract and your service level

agreements.

It could be the sort of thing where, let's
say as a business, you decide you're going

to kind of do the a la carte thing and
you're going to get your own charges and

do your own service and do your own
software and do everything because maybe

you thought that made sense.

but any one of the pieces in that cog can
slow you down.

Whereas versus if you went with a company
that's kind of a one-stop shop, you're

really doing one agreement, they're taking
care of all of that other stuff on the

back end, that makes it a little bit of a
smoother process.

Then the other thing also is that the
maintenance and the upkeep, that can be a

huge problem if you don't deal with that
from the get-go.

in terms of determining who's responsible
for what.

I'll say there's another thing also, is
also power load and power management.

That's also huge.

You need to look into that piece too.

Because I have heard stories of a building
where they say you can only use, charge a

car for an hour.

That's it.

You get a maximum of an hour a day.

That's not gonna work for most people,
even at a level two.

That's just not gonna be enough time.

And...

They're either making that decision
because they're not knowledgeable, they

don't understand how much time it takes.

It could be they're making that decision
because the way their contract is set up,

they are paying for all of the electricity
and they don't want to foot the bill and

so they feel if they limit people to an
hour, it will cost them less money.

It could also be there aren't enough
chargers in the building.

It could also be that the building can't
handle the power load because they didn't

think of all of those things.

There's just so many pieces to this that
go above and beyond just putting the darn

thing in the ground and saying, hey, we
did it.

So there's a lot of stuff that can throw
you sideways, Chase.

For sure.

And I think to maybe reframe the question
I've been asking indirectly a lot, I

guess, let's give in your experience.

Let's just walk through.

Let's just walk through what would be your
ideal installation process, or what would

be your ideal installation.

And then one of the things we discuss a
lot on this channel is, is there a

business model for EV charging outside of
being like a Flying J or the traditional

one or.

like a Tesla that has kind of revenues
from across the board.

So I think it'd be really interesting with
the time we have to go through how you

would design kind of the ideal charging
location and if you can share like

anything on round, even the ideal business
model for doing such.

Right, okay, so before I answer that
question, if we're gonna go there, let's

pick a particular type of location, and
then we can have that discussion, because

the answer to that question is completely
dependent upon the location and the use

case.

It's totally different.

call.

And to clarify, I'm thinking like level
three fast charging.

So let's say level three fast charging
maybe inner city or not inner city but

between cities for road tripping or
something.

Okay, so that's good.

Now we have a vision in our head, and now
based on that I can answer that question.

So if you're doing level three fast
charging in a major mobility corridor, the

place where it would make the most sense
to put it is along a highway or with very

close distance to a highway exit or
off-ramp.

That's probably where you would be
thinking to put it.

You would also want it to be an
appropriate distance between two locations

where it would make sense that people
might be stopping part of the way to

charge up.

So if you have an urban area and a
suburban area and people are traveling

from a suburb into a major city, somewhere
along that mobility corridor is a place

where it would make sense to put the DCFC
fast charging.

People coming from work going to home

people going from home to work, somewhere
in there makes sense to put it.

So that's how you have to think about that
piece of it.

The only thing that you have to think
about this ideally is again, you would

need to know, are there people in that
suburban area with a lot of EVs?

And if there are, then it makes sense to
now put the fast charging probably where

most of those people might be going to
commute to work.

That's one part of looking at this.

You also need to know,

The power requirements for a level three
DCFC fast charger, they're massive.

So you would need to know how close are
you to the closest substation where you

can draw that power.

You might want to think about putting in
fast chargers in that location that have

onsite battery backup and power storage.

Why would you wanna do that?

Because

At the most expensive time or busiest
times of the day, not only you have more

volume and more people coming in to charge
up, but guess what?

It costs more money for the electricity
that you're going to use at that time of

the day because of course the utility
companies charge you a premium for

providing electricity at peak hours.

So, if you have a battery system in that
fast charger, you might be able to draw

power at cheaper periods of time.

That way you store the power in there and
that way when people show up at let's say

four or five o'clock in the afternoon,
power is available and it's not hyper

expensive because you pulled the cheaper
power from the grid at different times of

the day.

You might want to think about doing a
battery backed up fast charger in that

location.

Then you need to also, what are your
contracts going to look like?

You need to do a title search.

You would need to do a survey.

You might want to see a photo sim of what
it's going to look like.

That way you can visually imagine how
that's going to appear.

You would want to make sure that the
person that you're entering into that

contract with and that owns the land on
the side of the highway, whether it's your

state, your county, or a private person,
has actually the ability to enter into

that contract with you.

Then you would want to look at your
contract terms from the get-go.

Who is going to be responsible for the
maintenance?

What's going to happen when that charger
breaks?

If it's in a location where a lot of
people are going to be using this charger

and relying on it regularly, you probably
want your maintenance window to be very

short.

Is there a company that...

and I know this and this is all great.

I'm just kind of curious.

Are there is there like an average length?

Term is it like three years and auto
renews or what whatever you seem to be

kind of normal around them

I've seen everything.

Right now, what you generally get

ideal situation, what would you do?

Or what would you say that the term should
be?

So, I would say that you would probably
want, from the perspective of both the

owner on the property and the company
that's doing the investment, you probably

want a lease 10 years, 15 years, something
like that because you're both making an

investment in this.

You both want to know that you're going to
be able to consistently make money over

time.

This is...

This is as much an investment for the
property owner as it is for the

infrastructure company and as it is for
the industry.

Typically what you will see in a lot of
wireless agreements and you will see this

in outdoor advertising agreements and
things like that is you will see something

like a five-year term or an initial, let's
say, 10-year term, and then you'll see

five-year terms that will automatically
renew after that, and you're looking at 25

to 30-year leases.

I think right now the industry is probably
a little too immature for people to be

willing to commit to a 30-year lease
because it's probably going to change a

lot over time.

At the same time, it might take five years
to actually see a sufficient return on

that investment from both the owner and
the infrastructure company for it to be

worth it for them to do that.

You want to know.

Certainly, if you're investing in the
infrastructure, you want to know that

you're going to be there for at least the
next five to 10 years without the owner

throwing you out.

From the owner's perspective, they also
want to know that they're going to be able

to see some money consistently over time.

I think if you had a situation where you
had leases for that five-year window and

they would automatically renew, unless
there are reasons to not do it, then we

really start getting into the weeds as to
how you would do that.

probably begin to make some sense.

That gives everybody the feeling that
there's some staying power to this and

that it's gonna be a worthwhile investment
from both ends because we know that the

infrastructure is gonna be here for a
while and hopefully consistently paying

over time.

So in terms of the length of time, that's
probably the sort of thing that you would

wanna see.

And the other thing also is that you will
also wanna make sure that contract gives

you the ability to upgrade your equipment.

as it changes and as it improves.

That is something that you see across the
board with solar and with wind and with

wireless telecom.

They always have that built into the
contracts and to the agreements.

Yes, we might be putting this particular
type of DCFC in the ground today, but it

could turn out that the equipment improves
to such a great extent that we might want

to take it out and put something in
better.

We might want to upgrade the internals.

of that equipment so that way it's
charging faster and better and cheaper and

more efficiently and so on and so forth.

You would want to have the ability to
essentially be able to freely do that

without necessarily being interfered with
or having the property owner interfering

with you.

Of course, you're not taking more space.

You're not interfering with the real
estate that they've given you, but you

want to be able to upgrade your equipment
as you need it from both perspectives.

And there could be potential downtime or
some other things to do that.

I got you.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Well, that's really fascinating.

Are there any other things you would say
to that?

Or is that kind of it at a high level for
fast charging?

would say that the other thing also is
access is absolutely critical in terms of

maintenance and repairs, really critical,
especially in our example of the DCFC.

That is why it's so important to do the
title search and to do the survey because

really that equipment in particular is
very expensive.

It costs money to maintain it.

There is a lot of work behind the scenes
that has to go in.

In order to get that equipment going, you
really have to have your agreement going

with the power company, with the power
line.

There's way more work that goes into a
level three fast charger right then your

typical at home level one setup.

It's a whole different ballgame.

And especially if you're making that type
of investment, which by the way could

easily be six figures, it would be who
view.

To do that and to know that you can
consistently access it, that the contract

gives you the ability to maintain it, that
you're going to be able to keep it there

for a consistent period of time, those are
all the things that would really need to

go into that in terms of that, let's say,
being an ideal situation.

By the way, we didn't even touch on
whether or not it could be zoned and

permitted for that sort of thing.

You also would need to know that the spot
that you pick that you think might be

ideal

that it's zoned and you would be able to
get the permitting for that particular

location too.

Just a small thing to be aware of, right?

Just a few little things.

So yeah, exactly.

So in that example, we talked about DC
fast charging between cities.

You know, there's been a lot of the news
like recently Chicago, and I've heard a

lot about Brooklyn specifically.

If you have an EV, it's really hard to
find.

If you don't have level two, you're pretty
much, you're out of luck.

And especially DC fast charging.

And I realized once again, we're kind of,
we've got so much we can talk about, but

like at a high level, are there any things
for an inner kind of like,

inside of a city center when building DC
fast charging to be aware of that we might

not have covered in that recent exam.

Yeah, I would say that in many urban
areas, doing DC fast charging is going to

be incredibly difficult if not close to
impossible because in dense urban areas,

you already have massive needs for power.

So to put that type of charging into a
dense urban area does not necessarily make

so much sense.

And again, keep in mind that people that
are coming to charge up quickly...

and to move on to go somewhere quickly, do
not necessarily need that.

In an urban setting, it makes more sense
to have level two charging,

hypothetically, in apartment buildings or
in parking garages.

We won't even get into discussing putting
it into parking garages in New York City

and in the five boroughs because that
presents a whole host of other problems,

but it would make more sense to have level
two charging where people live.

For the most part, and I think this is one
of the stats that you've heard, I've

heard, we've all heard this, and I don't
know where the numbers come from, but I

think everybody has essentially accepted
this as this is the way it is, but

something like 80% of people are charging
up their EVs in private homes.

That's where most people are charging up.

So if you can provide EV charging in
places where people consistently leave

their cars for extended periods of time.

like in shopping centers, like in
apartment buildings, that's where that

kind of makes sense and that goes back to
the comment and the little discussion we

had before about the infrastructure
matching up to the use case.

Totally.

The, I...

fast charging doesn't necessarily make
sense in the middle of Brooklyn.

It just doesn't.

I totally agree with you on that.

I think the reason I bring it up, this
wasn't kind of the detail that was getting

a lot of the attention, but obviously the
big thing that was happening recently,

like Chicago, I think was everywhere in
the EV news, was about people couldn't

charge.

And the thing that wasn't really being
covered was the vast majority of those

people having issues were actually kind of
Uber and Lyft and rideshare drivers who

don't have a place that they can charge
overnight.

And because they're doing so many, they
need, they need.

a DC fast charter so they can get back on
road, make a fare, which totally makes

sense.

But I think that what really stood out to
me and opened up the question going back

to fleets is like, in that sort of
example, you would have like commercial

fueling usually for something similar.

And then that kind of begs the question of
like, how are these companies especially

if they want to do like, how do they I'm
trying to think of what the chain is, and

it might just be here on the West Lake,
but like Pacific fueling, which is a

purely commercial fueling

Chain that trucks and other like
businesses can go to get fuel it really

does seem like especially in that use case
there needs to be a Commercial specific

charging which has it that it makes sense
that regular people one may not need it

But to it just opens up the charges for
those who really do and then they have a

place that they can go charge I'm curious
if that's something you've seen or have

heard discussions around that.

Yeah

I have definitely heard some discussions
around that and I have a couple of ideas

about how that might work well.

So I'll give you an example of what does
not work well, and then I'll give you my

thoughts of what I think would work well.

So the example of what I think does not
work well is I want you to imagine in your

head or our listeners should imagine a
ride share pickup line in a typical

airport.

I'll be traveling to a conference next
week.

I'll be going to an airport.

I'm sure I'm gonna get to see this, right?

Every time you travel, you see this on all
the rideshare cars come and go this.

So if you were to put a level two charger
in the rideshare pickup line, let me ask

you this question, Chase.

Do you think that would make sense when
you know that your typical Uber and Lyft

driver is not allowed to sit and wait for
you for more than five minutes?

Does a level two charger in the ride share
pickup line make any sense?

No, it does not.

Yet I have seen this in an airport.

Now that to me is just, it's stupid.

It's a dumb, it's what I would call a dumb
deployment.

Makes no sense.

All right, now.

Maybe.

you've got, you've got to have something
that's like, right.

And even then that, yeah, I, I agree.

Even level three, they're not sitting
there for more than five minutes.

Even a level three right now with the
existing technology and not everybody has

a Porsche take-hand that can do it, but
you still have to do it for 20 minutes.

It's a stretch.

All right, so now let me give you what I
think is the way to solve that problem.

Now you have all these people that are
coming to do the ride-share pickups.

They're coming.

They're picking up their passengers.

They can only stay for five minutes.

What if there was a place nearby where
they could actually sit?

So I'll give you the example of, I live in
New York and there is a cell phone pickup

lot at JFK Airport, leaving aside the fact
that I don't know how many people actually

use it because when you drive by on the
highway, you see dozens and dozens and

dozens of cars sitting on the side of the
highway, waiting to get into the airport,

not using the cell phone.

pick up parking lot, which by the way, the
advertise is free, but I guess people

don't use it because probably once you get
into that pick up lot, it's a pain in the

neck to get to your terminal.

So people prefer to sit outside of the
airport and wait for their friends and

family to call them and then they go in
and pick them up.

But let's just pretend that there was an
offsite parking facility where you could

sit, where you might be sitting as you
wait to get your hails.

where there is room, where there is space,
where there is infrastructure, where you

could put in chargers.

Would it make more sense to put them in
that place and let the rideshare people

sit in that parking facility?

They can charge up while they wait.

And then when they're ready to go to the
airport, they just go.

And not only that, they probably either
charged up fully or close to 80% or

something like that.

And now they can continue to go about
their day and about their business in

terms of being able to charge up.

So it would make more sense to have an
offsite location where you could do level

two or maybe even level three charging
that would match the use case there as

opposed to putting it in a place where it
really makes no sense.

So I don't know if there are people out
there that think that you might have a

piece of property where something like
that makes sense, come and talk to me,

right?

Cause I know people that might be willing
to work with you to do something like

that, right?

So those are the kinds of things.

So...

That would be an example of what doesn't
make sense, but what could potentially

make sense.

And that would be a good way to kind of
solve that issue.

Those people would then have a place to
sit where they can charge up.

Hopefully it would be a place where
there's light and there are bathrooms and

it's safe and so on and so forth, but
where it would make sense for them to be

sitting and charging, as opposed to
putting the charger in the pickup line

where it makes no sense.

Right.

And no, I completely agree with you and
that makes a lot of sense.

I think one of the other interesting
things I've seen, I think that makes

sense.

And then I was actually at a Sonic
drive-through on a road trip and they had

one in Boise where there was like eight
Tesla superchargers and they were kind of

the newer higher power one, but it also
just kind of made sense.

People would come in, get food, they'd
charge, but and I think this is another

thing I kind of want to talk to you real
quick, but

Obviously Tesla has it so it's like you go
in, you charge, they have fees if you're

there charging too long and all this
stuff, which I think is great to help with

kind of forcing to move people through.

incentivize people to move their cars.

Yes.

And I think naturally just once again,
that's kind of a good fusion.

I like someone gets lunch, they have their
lunch, they're off.

And I think specifically what you're
talking about for like the commercial

application, that use case even better,
but you do see still from some of the car

brands, they offer the free charging, the
free, uh, kind of like, okay, you can have

for like two years.

Have you dealt with that at all?

Or do you see that as kind of something
that's a short-term sales push that.

really is gonna be probably not the best
for getting that throughput and really

creating the best EV charging experience.

Yeah, I think as a short-term solution, it
makes sense.

From the perspective of the car companies
that are offering it, I think it indicates

that they are acknowledging that publicly
available EV charging might not be so

great or easily available.

And if they, and at the end of the day,

They want their customers to be happy and
excited about their product that they're

selling to them.

So offering that to them, I think, is a
great idea because it keeps your customers

happy and as a practical matter, it keeps
their cars charged up and do you think

that they're gonna tell their friends and
family, hey, the experience with car

company so-and-so is excellent because I
get the charge up for free.

By the way, there are people that are on
that legacy plan with Tesla and they love

to brag about it because they're
grandfathered in and wherever they go, it

doesn't cost them anything.

God bless them.

totally yeah, exactly.

I think that's totally true too, because
like it's especially for people who may be

coming to like electric vehicle for the
first time, the idea that not only am I

saving money by being electric from gas,
the fact that when I go fast charge, it's

even free and saving even more money, I
think kind of is a good incentive.

And obviously, they talk about a lot.

But it also is like almost creating the
wrong incentives for the larger EV

drivers.

But at the same time, and in some ways
between the

just general gas savings of even paying
for electricity and not having to do the

oil changes.

That unto itself, I think is a huge plus.

But yeah, I totally get what you're saying
there.

tell you what the problem is with that
though.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

For sure.

When I think.

day, somebody is paying for that.

Whether that will continue to be viable
over the long term, I don't know.

My hope is that the state of publicly
available infrastructure for EVs would

improve to the point where you might not
necessarily still have to provide that, or

it could be the sort of thing where you
just might provide it as...

a premium service.

If you think about the way the airline
industry works, you basically have the

same flight whether you sit in first
class, business class, or coach.

But for a couple of extra premium
services, people are willing to pay a lot

more money for something like that.

It's entirely possible that maybe for some
of the higher end manufacturers that they

that might be something that they can
offer to their customers.

But again, you'd have to be super picky
and super specific about where you would

choose to make that kind of free service
available.

Because I don't think that if you were to
be doing that across the board, we'll use

Porsche for example, I don't think that
Porsche wants to provide free electric

charging to every single one of its
customers.

across the entirety of the United States.

That just might not be a good business
plan.

But as a premium service in certain
neighborhoods or in certain states or in

certain cities, that might be a good sales
pitch.

when I think it comes back to the whole
business model of it and like where I

guess real quickly, because I realized we
were coming up on the time and this will

be the, yeah, these will be the final
questions, but first, what do you, for

sure, for sure.

No, and it's always changing, but yeah,
I'm kind of curious on what you think, if

you can share this, what is the best and
what is the worst business model

for an EV charging company, I guess.

Because I still struggle with the margins
and exactly what you're talking about

right now.

It's like someone has to pay it in the end
and that comes at a different cost.

And whether it's costing the money or the
service quality.

Yeah, I think right now it's pretty hard
to answer that question.

And unfortunately, I feel as if I need to
put on the lawyer hat a little bit and to

use something that as lawyers we say
frequently, which is the answer to that

question, it depends.

It depends.

Because you can have an ideal business
model.

An ideal...

legal structure in one particular place,
but it might not be the same thing across

the street.

The example that I'll give you for that is
I'm sure you've been to a Starbucks.

If you've been to any big city, I'm sure
you've seen, especially in a place like

Manhattan, you may have several of them
within a three or four block radius.

Each one of those stores is servicing a
different customer.

different sets of return on their
investment.

They might even be offering different
drinks and different foods because in the

little market in which they inhabit on
that spot on the block, it's all

different.

And so just because you have an ideal
business or legal structure over here does

not mean that necessarily plays well
somewhere else.

It's really gonna be

location dependent, it's really gonna be
use case dependent, it's really going to

be power availability dependent, and when
you throw all that stuff into the mix, if

somebody were to come to me, and let's
just use the example that we used before

of the DCFC fast charging along the
mobility corridor, I could certainly come

up with ways in which I can say, these are
the ideal ways in which you would wanna do

this.

But if you were to flip that and you were
to go into an urban area and say, here's

an apartment building, my answer to some
of those questions and how you would

structure this could be completely
different.

No, and I had a feeling that's what you're
gonna say, but I wanted to ask it because

it's a question I get asked a lot, right?

No, it's, right.

Yeah.

a perfect answer and a perfect business
model.

It turns out these are complicated things
and that's why there isn't a perfect

business model.

no necessarily one answer.

One of the things that I think that I
would really like to see and I feel like

that we will start to see this, I think as
the industry matures and as the quality of

the infrastructure improves and as the
quality of the vehicles improves and as

the battery technology improves and as the
software improves and as we start to see

more standards and all of that stuff
starts to get better.

I think what we will start to see is a
situation where the business models will

start to be a little bit more consistent.

That will happen over time.

That definitely happened in the telecom
industry.

Just to give you one little taste of that,
from agreements from 20-25 years ago, you

would sometimes see where maybe they might
be paying rent, but let's say they weren't

paying rent, but what they were offering.

was a free line of service and a free cell
phone or for up to like three family

members or something like that.

That's what they did.

That is not a business model that would
fly in 2024.

And in that industry right now, by and
large and almost without exception,

everybody is paying rent to the people who
are putting the infrastructure on their

property.

That is the way that industry has shook
out.

There's very little of the revenue sharing
other than the little example that I gave

you before, but that's what consistently
works.

There's still some leasing models, still
some licensing models, still some easement

models, still some combos of that, but
that's generally what you see.

Right now in the EV industry, it's still
too young and too immature where we don't

have a consistent model yet, but I feel
like we will get there.

And the company that figures out what that
model is, combined with consistently doing

their homework and doing their due
diligence, those will be the companies

that are ultimately going to succeed at
this enormously.

For sure.

And I think that's why I think there is
definitely a model there.

But it's also interesting to me, like even
the traditional fueling companies, they

don't make money on gas.

They, if anything, sometimes lose it.

They make all their, right.

They make all their money on concessions.

And so you're finally seeing some of these
larger fueling companies kind of get in

that space, at least domestically.

They've already done that to some extent
internationally, but

are a lot of startups that are looking at
that very model, by the way.

They're all over the place.

for sure.

And I, I mean, I feel like I could keep
talking with you about this.

We haven't even touched like the Neve
funding and all of that stuff.

But

go for hours.

But we have to be conscious of time and
everyone's tolerance.

I know.

I'll leave it at one final thing and then
we will.

We will have to cut this off.

Unfortunately, one kind of general
question I ask is of most people is just

like any recommendations they do have for
government or for the public sector to do

better on these things.

But I think I'll tie it into the Navy
thing where we're seeing a lot of these

Navy funding and other just kind of
general state government funding being

tied with certain.

Now uptime things, and it kind of goes
back to some of those terms you were

talking about and the experience that was
created that they have those.

Is there anything that, like, if you had
to choose one thing that you'd like to see

in that kind of stuff, like, it needs to
have uptime or it needs to have some sort

of thing that we've obviously seen has
burnt us that we need to have in these

things moving forward.

Yeah, this is a fabulous question.

We could probably spend an entire podcast
on this topic alone, but I'm not going to.

I'm not going to, I'm gonna answer it.

I'll tell you the short and quick answer
as to what I would like to see that would

really make a difference.

I think that if the funding for
deployments was tied to...

utilization, uptime, and consistent
maintenance over time using a standard

that everybody could understand or a
metric that everybody could understand and

follow.

Plus...

incentives for accountability and you put
that together, you'd have a much better

situation.

I'll give you an example so that way we
can get past the little bit of legalese

there.

If you were to hand out money to people
not when they put the chargers in, but if

they

and when they broke that you consistently
fixed it within 24 hours.

And you only provided that money to the
company that put the infrastructure in the

ground or to the property owner that was
getting the benefit of the incentive or

the tax break, not at the beginning, but
after they showed consistently that

they've been doing this over time, then
what would start to happen is that people

would actually think that you

a lot more about where they were putting
the infrastructure to start with.

Because if they knew that they're not
going to get the money unless we show a

certain level of utilization, uptime, and
maintenance, then they're just not going

to put it in the middle of nowhere where
it won't be utilized, where we won't fix

it, and where we won't be providing spare
parts.

They just won't do that, right?

And the situation that you have right now
is that you have none of that.

So here's one of the problems.

is that if I'm not mistaken that the new
Neve funding requires 97% uptime and the

companies that are now let's say fixing
the broken chargers, which again we're

going to have a whole discussion on that,
fixing the broken chargers has to provide

five years of maintenance.

But let me ask you this, what happens when
it's not up 97% of the time?

What happens when they don't provide five
years worth of maintenance?

They've already gotten the money.

So are they going to write?

Therein lies the crux of the problem.

So if we tie the incentives and we tie the
funding to something like that, people

will make much smarter decisions about
where they deploy the infrastructure to

start with.

And secondly is that if you are going to
have a requirement like 97% of time and

five years worth of maintenance, you have
to have a metric.

And then you also have to have a way to
incentivize people to actually follow

that.

If you have a rule for anything, pick and
choose whatever it is that you want.

But if you break the rule and you never
get into any kind of trouble for breaking

the rule, are you going to break the rule?

Yes, you're going to break the rule
because nothing happens to you if you

don't follow it.

So we need to have rules and regulations
in place.

That.

require people to follow them and if they
don't follow them, they get into trouble

for not following them.

And not only that, but we also have to
have rules and funding in place that

actually incentivize good behavior versus
poor behavior.

So if the money is only handed out after
you show that it's being used, it's being

maintained, and you're fixing it quickly,
then you will put it in a place where you

know it will be used, where it will be
maintained, and where you will have the

ability to fix it quickly.

As opposed to what we have right now.

We still put it right down in the ground
and by the way, we might be putting money

back into chargers we never should have
put into the ground to begin with.

But don't worry, we have 97% uptime and we
have to give five years worth of

maintenance.

So we're all good.

We're not.

I think that's a great point and probably
the best place to end this.

But I think you're totally right.

There needs to be an element of like maybe
some of the, at least some of it upfront,

some of it over time, because we've talked
to other people on the show too that we're

expecting to see a lot of consolidation in
the space.

There's all these people that have gone
money, that have had things and now

they're being caught off guard with the
long-term kind of actual maintenance of

this business.

So I think...

I think we're going to be seeing a lot
more in this and I think that's a great

idea and I hope that is what happens if
anyone's listening.

That has influence?

Yes.

the federal government or any of the
lobbying firms out there that you're

listening to this, we have a great idea.

You just got to do it that way and then
maybe it will work.

Or the next time that funding comes out,
that's how you have to set it up.

for sure.

But Jason, we definitely have to have you
back soon.

I just want to say thank you so much for
coming on today.

And with that, we'll let you get going.

Thank you.

Truly, it's been a pleasure.

Thank you, Chase.

This has been awesome.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining us on this
insightful journey through the intricacies

of electric vehicle charging and the
decisions that need to be made when

planning them today with our guest, Jason
Goldfarb.

We hope you've gained valuable
perspectives on the ever evolving energy

and electric vehicle charging landscape,
along with the crucial role grid

connectivity plays in shaping our
sustainable future.

If you want to learn more and reach out to
Jason, please check today's show notes.

He's a great resource and always.

posting new ideas and sharing some of his
updates on LinkedIn as well, which you can

find in today's show notes.

If you enjoyed today's episode, don't
forget to subscribe to the Great

Connections podcast and leave us a review.

Your feedback is invaluable and it helps
us continue bringing you engaging content

and expert analysis.

Remember the power of knowledge is
amplified when shared.

So take a moment to share this episode
with a friend, colleague or family member

who shares your passion for energy and
clean transportation.

Together we can spark meaningful
conversations and contribute to a more

informed and empowered community.

Stay connected with us on social media for
updates on upcoming episodes and

additional content.

Follow us on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram,
among others, to be part of our growing

community.

As we conclude this episode, we express
our gratitude to Jason for sharing his

expertise and experience with us today.

Thank you for tuning in and charging
forward with us.

Until next week, this is the Great
Connections podcast signing off.