good morning Grid Connections listeners.

I'm joined today by Steve Gutmann and Robert Wallace.

I've got a pretty interesting story to talk with you about today and what they're kind of
bringing as a perspective to EV drivers specifically in rural areas.

And I think this is a subject that's always been really uh close to me with my own
personal experience in driving EVs throughout the Northwest here.

uh Steve and Robert, thank you so much for coming on today.

You bet.

thanks for having us.

So Steve, I know you've been in kind of the EV space for a little while.

Can you give maybe a bit of a background on yourself?

And then we'll kind of talk about what brings you onto the podcast today and specifically
just the greater thing that your team's trying to help people in this space learn about

and really make EV driving uh more feasible and just easier for people in rural
communities and how big of an impact it's already having.

Yeah, sure.

ah Let's see, I got started uh working in the EV space, it must have been about, I don't
know exactly, six years ago.

I worked at FORTH, a uh nonprofit in Portland that does transportation electrification
work ah for about three years.

While there, I actually worked with Robert uh on a program called eFarms that tries to
bring electric uh

equipment to um to agricultural producers.

uh Later, after I left fourth, I was hired by a very large company called NextEra.

NextEra is a big wind and solar and battery, stationary battery developer, and they
started a transportation electrification division, worked there for a couple of years, and

they ended up getting out of that business.

And when that happened, I

I decided to try to uh parlay my fundraising experience into uh sort of a grant writing
business.

And my first client uh in that business was uh Robert.

And we worked on a couple of grant applications together.

We won a couple of grants, couple of big grants, uh and uh was actually

during uh when we went to, we took a trip to Astoria to receive an award from the Rural
Development Administration.

I think it was, right Robert?

Is that right?

Yeah, yeah, anyway, we went to Astoria to receive an award together and uh during that
trip, um well, it's a pretty interesting story that I'll let Robert tell, but we, um

That became sort of the genesis of EV Math, which is a statewide marketing campaign that
my business partner, uh Mark Jacobs, along with uh Robert's nonprofit, Y East Resource

Conservation and Development, we are spinning up this thing called EV Math.

And it's really a statewide marketing campaign to normalize uh electric vehicles.

um among rural Oregonians.

We'll talk more about that.

But Robert, why don't you tell the story of our trip to uh Astoria.

Yeah, so everybody asked me how I got involved with electric vehicles or what have you and
it initially started with the eFarms program that Steve had mentioned and with that we had

purchased one of the first Rivian pickup trucks that hit the market and so that was kind
of my very first experience.

But that was part of the program, it wasn't necessarily a personal vehicle or anything and
in the meantime I'm traveling all over the state driving a diesel pickup and Steve he kept

He kind of kept after me and we'd be he'd called me on the phone as I'm driving down the
road and I remember one time I was going to my daughter's track meet and I know I was 130

miles away or what have you and he's like how much does it cost you to drive that pickup
and and he kept kind of grilling me we're over the phone going through these costs and as

this as this award

event came up in Astoria.

He's like, I live up near the Dalles and he's out of the Portland area.

And he's like, you meet me ah over on the east side of Portland and I'm driving you down
to Astoria and my Tesla.

Cause I'd, I'd ridden in Tesla once and really hadn't experienced that.

And so anyways, I met Steve, we hopped in his Tesla and proceeded to drive down to Astoria
and received the award.

And then drove back to Portland and especially on the way back.

On the way down, was more talking about the features of the car.

You know, it's got some unique features and such.

And on the way back, you know, we kind of got talking about the numbers on it.

I'm just thinking to myself, how many miles do I drive a year and I'm driving a diesel
pickup?

What if I, what if I switched and, you know, keep the diesel pickup for hauling heavier
loads and stuff?

But what if I did switch and buy this car?

You know, could I

you know, doesn't make sense.

And, uh, and so that, was kinda, uh, I was kinda hooked.

I think at the time I really liked, I really liked Steve's car and it was, you know, it
was a used, uh, model three Tesla.

And I actually went and bought the exact same car Steve, Steve has, uh, I, I, you know,
started looking online and, and what was available and, and, found a used, uh, Tesla model

three.

was a 2018.

at Platte Auto there in Portland.

And I mentioned it to Steve and Steve's like, I'll go down there.

I'll go down there and check it out for you.

And he did.

He did.

And anyways, ended up pursuing that car and was able to get the federal tax credit on it,
on that used EV.

And so to me, you know, I bought a used EV basically for $21,000.

And I just kind of at that time, like I'm going to, you know,

I'm just going to start driving this car anytime I'm doing a road trip that I don't need
to take the pickup.

And so that was my, you know, that's my first personal EV that I've, that I've had
experience with and, and, have had other experience with some of the other vehicles and

some of the, some of the work we do.

Yeah, I really appreciate the context and kind of the background for all that.

I guess one, can we take a step back and tell, go speaking of just like, I think there's a
lot of great things we kind of talked about here, but you mentioned kind of like the

electric farm equipment that I believe you're kind of doing with FORTH and that program.

And I know that's not directly related to EV math, but I think probably for a lot of our
listeners, this might be

kind of surprising that I mean, electrification really going into a lot of different
fields.

It's not just kind of for people's to replace people's second car or something.

I it's obviously becoming a more common form of transportation.

And then there's also kind of actual practicality on the industrial side.

I mean, could you share a little bit of how that program kind of worked around like, what
were some of your takeaways as far as the feasibility of kind of electrifying more of your

day to day?

equipment.

I'll kick it off.

So when I applied for the job at FORTH, I actually pitched the executive director, guy
named Jeff Allen, on the idea of looking into a company out of California.

It's called Solectrack that was making, you know, basically hand building electric
tractors to see if we might do some sort of a try before you buy program to get

agricultural producers

uh in Oregon to try an electric tractor.

Now these are not big combines or anything like that.

They're tiny little, what do you call them, utility tractors.

So I think they're like 50 horse equivalent or something like that, right Robert?

Anyway, we ended up getting a grant and we needed somebody to, uh somebody who wasn't from
the city like me, to go out into rural communities and actually show people these

tractors.

uh

mutual friend of ours introduced Robert and me and he ended up being sort of the, you
know, the tip of the spear in terms of taking this newfangled equipment out to rural

producers because he's got more credibility than anybody from Portland does in terms of
talking to people out in rural Oregon.

yeah, he started doing that.

Robert, why don't you talk about what's happened to the program since and what it's called
and where to find information about it too.

Yeah, I have to admit I my apologies for going down this rabbit hole a little bit But I'm
actually in the market for a new tractor So it is coming from a purely selfish standpoint,

too So I'm really curious to hear more and how this worked out for you Robert

Yeah, I remember when Steve called me and I knew who FORTH was, the organization he was
working for, but I didn't necessarily know a lot about him.

And he wanted to know if I'd be interested in working with them to test this electric
tractor out that they were looking at.

it caught me off.

I didn't even know there was electric tractors on the market.

I'd obviously heard about the electric uh vehicles, on-road cars and such.

uh

And I just had to think about it.

And I never gave him an answer to that day.

said, I need to think about this because I my, kind of thought, you know, my reputation's
on the line from, you know, testing out this darn electric tractor.

What does that mean?

You know, for some of the work we're doing, but long story short, we ended up pursuing
with that and that, that the program was originally called E-tractor and now it's called

E-Farms.

And it's actually a

coordination of four different nonprofits and so uh forth uh out of Portland uh
sustainable Northwest is another Portland based nonprofit Bonneville environmental

foundation and then why East RC and D and so we've uh joined together are exploring this
this program and essentially we've got a mixture of electric vehicles

We've had the Rivian pickup truck.

We've got the Ford F-150 Lightning pickup truck We've got a few of the Monarch electric
tractors.

We originally started with these select track tractors and select tractors since we've
been out of business um We've got ah some of the Polaris UTVs or Polaris side-by-sides

that are fully electric.

We've got uh one of the uh JCB mini excavators

that's for the country.

And so we've got kind of a variety of different equipment.

To date, most of the focus has really been in Oregon, kind of starting 2025.

We've been exploring more in Washington state, a lot of that just because of the funding
that had been derived from that.

And so essentially what we do is we look and see what's on the market, what we think may
be useful in rural areas as equipment wise or vehicle wise, purchase that through grant

funding.

uh bring it into our program.

I live on a small farm south of the Dalles out in Duford, Oregon.

And so I'll actually bring it to my farm.

We field test it.

We, know, tractors, put a mower on it, a rototiller, what have you, and we actually go use
it on the farm operation here.

And we'll, you know, kind of do the initial testing on it.

We'll put data collection on it.

uh And then once it's ready, we actually loan these pieces of equipment out.

to small farms in Oregon that have an interest in testing the equipment, uh whether that's
the pickup truck or the Polaris or the tractors or what have you.

And I think initially we thought, boy, is there an appetite for rural folks that actually
want to test this stuff out.

And we've been overwhelmed by people that are interested in testing these vehicles out.

Because I mean, it just, you

Up until a few years ago, you didn't see very many electric vehicles outside of the
Portland area.

I just remember usually for us driving from the Dalles into Portland, you hit about
Troutdale Gresham and you start seeing some Teslas and stuff and you just didn't see that

around much in the rural areas and stuff.

so long story short, the C-Farm program is up and going again.

It's a collaboration for Portland, Oregon.

based nonprofits and it's been quite successful um and stuff.

And so it's been a really fun program to work in.

That's great to hear.

I guess, yeah, now that you're saying you can borrow these, if someone will drive it over
the hood, we're a bridge.

I might take you up on that.

ah But so I guess I think electric motors, torque, there's a lot of reasons why it makes
sense, especially um compared to like the average little Kubota you'd be replacing it

with.

And it's funny you bring this up because I was just at the.

Down EV charging summit in.

Vegas back in March and John Deere and a lot of these other kind of larger commercial
players are now really starting to make a move into electrification as well.

I guess for those who are listening, mean, can you just share like some of the things that
kind of stood out to you when you were making that first decision about like, why is this

Monarch or this electric that much better than just the average Kubota or what's been your
experience with that kind of switch from the traditional diesel?

a tractor over to an electric one.

Yeah, I'll start off by saying, you know, Kubota, John Deere, New Holland, Case, I mean,
they've got over 100 years of engineering in there in that equipment.

And it's a tough, you know, tough level of engineering to meet and stuff.

so, ah you know, I think

As we're testing the equipment out we're trying to it's tough to compare against the John
Deere or Kubota because I mean here you've got a very very high standard there and so but

there's some things with the electric equipment that I think's Beneficial it's a little
bit different and and some of that is you know Not only the operation of the equipment you

have a lot of torque with the electric equipment and such but um it's basically a mobile
power plant on wheels and so like

on my place, I mean, right as we speak, I've got one of them on our tractors that's
running a little irrigation pump for me in an area where I have no power, but I can charge

the tractor, take it up there and it's got outboard power, 110 and 220 volt outlets.

And so I can run a little irrigation pump off it.

And so there's some different things that are an advantage with the electric that you
don't traditionally see on a diesel tractor and stuff.

so I think, you know,

the one of the factors that a lot of the manufacturers had mentioned to us originally was
the noise.

And I didn't really appreciate it until we had a chance to operate the electric.

And so it's, you know, we're looking at it a lot of times on a cost basis, you compare an
electric to diesel, the cost of the electric equipment tends to be higher.

And I think that's a real, a real challenge to try to figure out how to, how to navigate
that.

But,

the noise aspect and I've had a number of folks after they run the electric, they're like,
I've never been able to talk while I'm planting grapes or harvesting or doing these

different, whatever tasks they are when there's multiple people in the field around the
tractor because the tractor traditionally makes so much noise.

And so we kind of focus uh originally on the cost, the operation of the electric equipment
and such.

And then we're thinking about, well, hey, if

If you had a greenhouse operation and you had electric versus diesel, know, just the
emissions inside that enclosed area, you know, could be impactful and, those types of

things.

And with the Monarch, one of the features to it that we, aren't necessarily involved with,
but is it's actually a, got capabilities of being an autonomous tractor.

And so we had Monarch come in, um, uh, in 2024 for the, uh, cherry pre-harvest tour.

that Oregon State uh University Extension and Washington State University Extension had
hosted uh in Dallasport in the Dalles.

And we actually set that tractor up to run it in a fully autonomous mode.

And so the cherry growers, you know, there's probably 150 cherry orchardists around and
researchers and such.

And basically the tractor starts up, starts down the row, mows down the row, turns around
and comes back mowing.

And everybody's, everybody just looked, you know, I couldn't believe that.

And so our eFarms program's really looking at the electric drive train, but there are
other, other pieces to these, you know, newer pieces of equipment and such that, you know,

not to say you can't have an autonomous diesel tractor either, but you know, that was one
of the features with the Monarch specifically that, oh that they've tried to promote in

our marketing and stuff.

No, that's interesting.

I I can see how that plays kind of further into like the cost of maybe a higher upfront
cost ownership, but then the cost operation and other kinds of benefits and the autonomy

with the labor aspect of it's pretty impactful.

But we'll transition back over to what we're here to talk about today.

And I think that cost of operation uh is probably pretty significant and kind of, it
sounds like what's a big part of the reason.

You initially were kind of interested in going electric for your personal vehicle instead
of driving the diesel truck all around.

But I mean, was that the majority of your interest in going electric car was at first,
what that kind of like Delta in cost or were there other kind of uh aspects of it that

kind of drew you to having electric car, uh, kind of more for driving around instead just
the diesel truck.

Yeah, for me, was really, it was honestly a cost factor.

And I mean, I all drive typically, you know, 40, 45,000 miles a year sometimes just
depends on, know, and that's, and that's kind of combined and that's, know, for work or

for, for, you know, going to the kids, uh, high school basketball games or, football or
volleyball games and all that and such.

And so for me, just looking at the number of miles I drove,

uh And what it was costing me to do that and so that was that was the big factor for me I
think you know when I was looking and Steve tried talking to me and he's like uh You know

get it get something a little newer and I was like I don't know I I just not sure if this
is gonna work for me and I kind of want to limit my expense or you know getting in and uh

When I found the used I found that used Tesla Model 3

uh And then you hear it, know about the batteries and you know certain life left and so
this particular car still had some warranty left on the batteries and you know So it kind

of gave me this comfort level and I think the other piece for me was the federal tax
credit, you know It knocked four thousand dollars off basically the hood at the dealership

for that car and so it was originally priced at 24 950 and

and I got out the door, you know, 21,000 bucks basically for this, this used car.

And I remember when I first got back to town with it, uh, one of my, one of my, uh, buddy
farmer guys, he's like, Oh, it's pretty nice driving a $60,000 car.

And like, dude, it's a $20,000 car and he couldn't believe it.

And, uh, and stuff.

So for me, it was just as economics, you know, I mean,

Robert, talk a little bit about the comparison of what it costs you to drive a pickup
truck 4,000 miles a month versus the EV.

Yeah.

I mean, just kind of some general factors.

mean, we've, you know, we've part of this, this program we're working on this EV math,
we've actually created a calculator so folks could go in and, kind of put their numbers in

to see.

And uh the thing that was in the back of my mind was with us living, you know, right on
the Columbia river.

uh And we've, you know, I'm

I'm one of the cooperative customers and in town, it's the PUD.

We have some of the least expensive uh energy, electrical energy rates around.

But yet if you go to the diesel pump or the fuel pump, seems like we may be the highest,
you know, a high in the higher category uh in the region anyways, on the price of liquid

fuels.

So that kind of always stuck in the back of my mind.

I always kind of thought, boy, why aren't we, why aren't we looking at this, you know,
kind of out in these areas that have, you

a low cost electrical price.

It seems like we have an advantage there.

um so, um you know, mean, driving the car, it's, you we're talking two different vehicles.

We're talking a four by four diesel truck versus a, uh you know, four door sedan car.

But it cost me two to three cents a mile to drive that Tesla car versus, you know, 17, 20.

plus cents a mile to drive that diesel pickup.

And then the other factor is, I don't know if you've looked at the price of diesel pickups
lately, but they're quite expensive.

And a lot of times I was driving, you know, from the Dalles to Portland or to Salem or to
Pendleton or Tri-Cities to have a meeting.

I didn't necessarily need to drive a four-wheel drive diesel pickup to go get me where I
needed to go.

And so I've, for years and years, I've always driven a pickup.

And so was quite a change for me to drive a car, know, sitting down low and stuff.

And I've gotten used to it now, but boy, it was quite a quite a factor there at first.

But ah I mean, I, you know, I'm I'm driving this car for probably, you know, a fifth or a
sixth or an eighth of what it cost me to drive that diesel pickup.

And so ah and I guess the other factor is

for me anyways was the charging infrastructure.

Because I can charge at home real easy.

It wasn't a problem with that.

On the farm I live on, I've got several 220 outlets that they originally put in for like
welding outlets and such.

And so, I mean, I've got a number of locations at my property where I can charge.

It's not an issue whatsoever.

But I was more concerned if I need to go to Pendleton and back, do I have enough range and
where would I charge?

seen with going to Salem and back and stuff.

And the one thing I found quickly with the Tesla car is the charging infrastructure is
there.

And so, I mean, you kind of find your spots where you like to charge, you know, and I
haven't had any issues with that.

The only, you know, there's been a couple of locations where the kids have had a
basketball game, you know, out like by spray or out in the

you know, a pretty remote area and I can get there.

just don't know if I can get home.

And so, you know, usually that's in the middle of winter.

So I might take the diesel pickup for that, but all other times, you know, just driving
this, driving this car for the most part.

And I almost think I'm trying to overwork the car sometimes.

you know, I'm frequently, you know, part of my,

job or whatever, be, I'll do pump evaluations or be working on a piece of equipment or
something.

And so I've always got the car loaded with tools or equipment or that type of thing.

Um, you know, here last week, we took it down into bend and central Oregon.

And of course, you know, you got to stop at Costco and, know, get a couple of big bags of
dog food and all the goods in there and stuff.

And, and, so, I mean, I definitely put the car to work.

and I mean, that's just.

Kind of what you do when you live out in the country.

mean, live essentially out in the middle of the wheat field, my closest neighbors over a
mile away.

And so when you go to town, you got to get supplies, I guess, and stuff.

I don't give it light use and I drive it on a daily basis uh and stuff.

But again, the cost factor for me and just what it costs to drive the car is the main
reason I pursued it.

Yeah, it's kind of funny.

mean, I'm not hitting 45,000 miles a year, but usually I'm doing about 25 to 30,000
easily.

And it's interesting because for me, there was a financial incentive of kind of getting
rid of gas.

But I think the thing that really stood out to me was oil changes.

I've changed my own oil in the past, but especially when I was living either in Bend or
even kind of closer to Portland area, I would usually just go to the one that like

difficult loop things and the cost of that, but also the time trade off is like, okay,
that takes, I mean, I was doing every couple of weeks and I'm sure it's probably the same

if not more for you.

And that becomes such like a time savings and just like one less kind of that maintenance
and cost of trying to run it.

I mean, you're saying you do about 45,000 miles a year.

Are you seeing now like two thirds of that are in the EV or do you know roughly kind of
how much of that you've moved away from the truck?

Yeah, I would say probably 85 % of my driving's in the car.

and then I still use the truck a fair amount, but usually I'm only using the truck when I
need to tow a trailer, I need to haul stuff heavy.

Otherwise, it's so easy to drive the car.

I mean, it just, especially, know how many times I go to downtown Portland and try to park
a pickup truck.

I mean, that's, that's even if it's a half ton, you're like F 150 or something, it's, uh,
it's tough.

And now you can just wheel in there and car makes a lot easier.

So there's some, you know, kind of hidden, hidden things and it's different type of
vehicle, but I would, I would still say, you know, the majority of the time, uh, I'll

choose to drive the car.

It's really great for my mom lives in the Dalles.

And so just to, you know, jet in and see her and check on her and see what she's up to, it
just super easy to hop in that car and go in and come.

Stuff and you'd mentioned the oil changes well the oil change for a diesel pickup is
usually three or four hundred dollars kind of depends on what all you need done and So I

mean that's a that's a huge savings just that alone.

uh I I don't know I kind of like the fact to I mean with us, know on the Columbia River
here You know, I can look and see the hydro dam and know that hey my power is made right

there You know, so when I talk about local local sourced energy and and stuff and

and everything.

But yeah.

No, that's a good point too.

I'm trying to add solar.

We're kind of redoing our house.

so solar is definitely a big one, but you're right.

if you're coming from an environmental standpoint here in the Gorge, it's like, okay, it's
either hydro or wind.

You can't really feel that bad about it.

And for me personally, it's just, I'm the big enough nerd to want to do it and have kind
of that self reliance or any issue because of a grid problem.

But no, I think that's really great to hear.

um Steve, was there something you wanted to jump in and say there?

Well, I just wanted to point out, and we won't go into a lot of detail, but Robert's story
is really compelling, but on the evmath.org site, there are nine other stories of nine

other rural Oregon households.

And some of the stories are just amazing.

One in particular I love, and that's the story of a woman named Brandy McNamee.

She married a fifth generation rancher in Antelope.

and took her three years to convince him that they should trade in their Ford, I think
it's an Expedition or something, uh for an electric vehicle.

And her husband's a trained diesel mechanic, but she eventually wore him down.

now, you know, they have, they actually ended up leasing a Tesla Model Y, and they use it
to take their own three kids and a neighboring family's three kids.

to the bus stop and back because the bus stop is like, I don't know, like 20 miles away or
something.

Anyway, and she does that every day.

But it's gotten to the point where her husband loves the car as much as she does and he
drives it around the ranch during the day.

So, I mean, this is a fifth generation ranching family and they are saving more on fuel
every month than the lease is costing them.

And think Robert's in the same boat, right?

I I think you've said you financed your vehicle and the fuel savings are more than the
cost of the monthly payment.

And we're seeing this with rural households all around Oregon that the fuel savings in
some cases uh outweighs the cost of the vehicle itself.

So they're literally like making money by having another vehicle instead of just driving
around the old.

Ford Expedition or diesel pickup truck that they used to be driving for everything.

And the other part of this that Robert sort of mentioned with the hydropower, I mean, it's
almost like an economic development strategy for rural areas, right?

Instead of all that money for fuel going out of the community, the money to charge these
vehicles really stays in the community at the local utility.

I think that's super important and obviously it leaves a lot of money in people's pockets
as well that they can spend on other things other than fueling their vehicle.

I don't know.

I just encourage folks, if you're interested, to check out the site, read some of these
stories, watch a couple of the videos.

They're really inspiring.

And I think it's kind of interesting what you mentioned, Robert, that I don't think most
people fully appreciate about the cost of gas and diesel in more rural areas.

And they don't take into account the fact that it is a lot more expensive usually because
of the additional transportation cost.

And so many of the times, yeah, there are PUDs out here.

And I'm always consistently surprised by how cheap electricity is in the Northwest in
general.

know it's going up, but we still pay so much less than so many other parts of the country.

Even if you're on PG or Pacific power, and then you get onto a PUD and it'll be like a
third of that even.

And so I think that is a really interesting part of kind of like the whole EV math kind of
concept.

Because I mean,

The gas car I had replaced our EV with a few years ago, speaking to what Steve's about,
pretty much was that same deal.

I was getting about almost 30 miles a gallon in that thing, but I was driving so much and
even just buying regular gas, it was pretty much breaking even, especially once I figured

in oil changes.

had a much nicer car and I was paying less.

What one of the other things you also mentioned there Robert, I think it's really
fascinating is the utility of an electric vehicle.

I think this first, I had this first experience and this was kind of a wild one back in
20.

I I've been impressed with a lot of electric vehicles because of the storage in them, but
I think this is back in 2015 2016.

There was a start buzz working for in the Bay and the company car we had because we were
doing some kind of R &D on it was a Model S.

And we had to go to Home Depot to buy a bunch of materials for our, to set up this office
garage space.

It was a couple thousand foot garage.

And I went in and we had to go buy some, we had to buy both, I think three doors and I
want to say four wood saw horses.

And we got all of those after we fold down the seats in this model.

And we fold down the seats.

got four doors, the three doors, four sawhorses.

And I forgot whatever else we had bought at Home Depot all into this one car, even without
like having to put anything on the rack.

And obviously the Model S is like a bigger car, but I'm, I'm consistently surprised by
like just the inherent utility, the utility.

And I think that's what most people don't realize.

I mean, I think growing up in a more rural area, it's like, um, you see, I mean, the
Northwest is a little bit different, but

It's pretty common to see either a big, uh, digital truck, the F three 50 or something.

And then like a Subaru outback and as for as much, uh, crap as a Subaru gets a Subaru
outback, it's an incredible utilitarian car.

Uh, and so there's kind of a reason you to see these things out there every now and then.

And I think just with kind of the layout of like a model three or some others where you
have the front, have all these just spaces, whether it's you're going to hit.

I mean, this even happened to me the other day.

We forgot to get dog food and yeah, I'd get a couple of 50 pound bag and I just threw in
the back.

not even an issue at all and ran some other and didn't even think about it.

And then when it got a bunch of, I had to get some ground cover, some clover, and I threw
that in the bag and I didn't even think about it.

And then my neighbor sees me taking all this stuff out of the car and they're like, where,
where, where did you go?

was like, oh, I here, I there.

And then he's got a, I mean, admittedly, could obviously fit after you went dodge.

I think it's got a 2,500 and he just couldn't believe all the stuff I had just, and I even
like, I was even trying to.

prioritize where I put this, I just knew it fit in there.

And I think there's just a lot of utilitarian advantages to like electric vehicle platform
for more rural areas that, um, that there, I think there's two elements, like in some ways

it's, think someone in a growing up in a more rural area, they're surprised electric
vehicle can be so utilitarian, but I think someone probably growing up in a more, uh,

urbanized area don't realize or appreciate how important that

having a utilitarian vehicle is when you're in a more rural area.

And I think that's just what's always consistently impressed me with like an electric
vehicle platform is just how much stuff you can get in one.

And you can do other kinds of trips that normally you wouldn't be able to do in like a
sedan or a small crossover even.

Yeah, and I even forget that we have the frunk and put items in there ah until I've
exceeded the capacity of what I can fit with the seats folded down on the rear end of the

car and stuff.

But yeah, one other thing I was going to mention too that kind of came to mind was, I
don't know how many times previously I would need to go someplace early in the morning and

I hadn't fueled up.

and I have to wait till the local fuel station opened before I could leave, know, so I'm
down there at eight o'clock waiting and I really should have left at seven or six thirty

ah because I, you know, was busy the day before and forgot to get fuel.

And that's the one thing to discharge from home.

mean, it just it's I can, you know, get up in the morning and take off and I've got my
full tank of fuel already to go and and stuff.

And it takes a little bit of getting used to because

You it seems like traditionally, whether it's a tractor, a pickup, it's like you get ready
to go someplace, you fuel before you leave, you know, so you leave at the full tank.

Um, but that's the fueling stations, unless you have fuel on farm or on site are somewhat
limited in the rural areas.

And up until just recently, our, local fuel station just got a, you know, a 24 hour card
lock type thing, but traditionally, you know, you could get fuel from 8 a.m.

to 6 p.m.

and.

I don't know how many times I've got up in the morning and left at, you know, five o'clock
or six o'clock in the morning thinking, man, I'm so glad I can leave on a fuel tank, a

full tank.

And I didn't have to, you know, stress about making sure I got fuel the night before and
everything.

And that's just from the ability to charge at home.

And so just a little bit of different, you know, a different setup as a result and stuff.

And so I think if you can charge at home, it's even that much more of an advantage.

it feels to me and I hope that some of the technology that we're working on here in the
soon to come with the vehicle to grid and the bi-directional charging because we've looked

at that a lot on how we can use the vehicles to provide backup power for our homes.

Especially when we look at the pickup trucks where they got the larger battery capacity.

mean, just that factor alone to have a portable power plant that I can plug in and run.

If it's my smoke, if it's my booster pump for my house and my internet refrigerator, you
know, even limited things, but I look forward to those days and the technologies, you

know, I think it's there.

Um, it's just a matter of, uh, I think it's evolving a little bit, but just another big
advantage in my mind.

Uh, cause like at my house, you know, I don't, if I don't have any power, I don't have, I
don't have any cell phone coverage.

So I have no communication.

have no internet.

have no water.

have no, you know,

no refrigeration or anything else.

And so it's kind of a big deal, especially in fire season for us to try to make sure
you've got some services because a lot of times you're on your own if there is a fire

event or what have you and stuff.

And so I just kind of wanted to mention a few of those other factors I guess I've thought
about and considered that are beyond the economics, I think, of these vehicles.

you know, oh

oh, what were you gonna say there, Stu?

I was just going to pile onto that.

You know, another factor for the McNamies, this ranching family out of Antelope, the
closest fuel for them is 40 miles away.

The closest fuel pump, right?

And now Brandy gets up every morning and she's got a full battery with close to 300 miles
of range and doesn't have to worry about driving 40 miles to go get a full tank of gas,

you know, or

And they probably, I don't know about, a lot of ranches have fuel tanks on site, they
don't, if that fuel tank is empty, they don't have to go 40 miles into town to get a tank

of gas.

Yeah, that was actually going to be one of the things I mentioned too, because I drive
down to Bend now probably every other week from here in the gorge.

And I usually go right past Robert going right through Dufour and Moppen.

And there's some pretty good stretches that when I've driven in our gas car, that if
you're not really thinking ahead, yeah, you can kind of run into an issue or you kind of

have to really hyper mile it to get to the next gas station.

There's been a couple of times I've rolled into Madras, which is a pretty

pretty much count.

I wouldn't say in the middle, but it's kind in the middle of, uh, or I'm sorry, mopping
kind of in between Madras and getting over to the Dell, they're do for, uh, where there's

kind of like a last gas station for a while.

And there's been a couple of times exactly that I'm rolling it like 10 or midnight.

It's either closed or they're out of gas or other issues like that.

And now I just drive straight from here to Ben without even thinking about charge.

Once I get down and Ben right at the place I'm staying at and,

That to me just unlocks so much.

mean, that story exactly you're telling about Steve is like, there's so many places,
especially like, think, um, as someone who lived in Portland for decade, there's

definitely a lot of I-5 mentality.

And as someone who's kind of like grown out east of that, you get out to like Primeville
or there's a lot of places just in other parts of the state where, um, yeah, you, could be

easily 40 miles or more to the closest gas station or

depending on the time of year, especially if you get propane or gas and you get a bad
storm or something, it might delayed another week or two before you can get that.

So I think there's a lot of really cool use cases that electrification unlocks.

I think, yeah, speaking of that vehicle to grid thing, I mean, that's been a really big
thing I've been interested in too.

I would love to see more of the smaller vehicles in Lockheed, but especially when you get
to like those larger battery pack sizes and you're in the hundred kilowatt hour plus

range.

Maybe not vehicle to grid, but at least vehicle to home kind of setups.

And some of the trucks that at least have the power outlets right there that you can
leverage is such a big game changer.

I'm kind of curious, Robert, on your experience.

I think we can talk about the vehicle to home as well, but you obviously now drive kind of
the daily, the Tesla Model 3, but you've used the Rivian, you've kind of been exposed to

Ford F-150 Lightning.

For your needs,

Do you still kind of prefer having kind of like the Model 3 and then maybe there's like
the S or the truck has some advantages here and there for the farm light?

We're like, how does, what style of EV right now fits the best into your life and your
experience, you think?

Yeah.

Well, that's a good question.

I think probably my best suited would probably be one of the pickup trucks to be honest
with you.

And because I'm, even though I say, you know, I use the diesel pickup to haul, I'm using
the car a lot to haul everything from livestock feed to dog food to, mean, to tools and

stuff.

And so I, you know, I

I probably should be looking at a, you know, either the F-150 or the Chevy Silverado EV
probably would be the ideal.

um But, you know, I think the cost factor, you know, getting into the Tesla Model 3 used
for, you know, the $20,000 mark, you know, is obviously a third of the price of getting

into one of the pickups and stuff.

And so for me, it was just, needed to dip my toe in the water and test it out, see if it
was going to work for me first.

uh and But I think you know it would be nice to have four-wheel drive mine just my car
just a real real real drive um and so you know there's some factors about that, know kind

of that country 11 where you Know we all would like four-wheel drive.

We'd all like kind of a little higher profile vehicle, you know or higher lifted vehicle
just for some of the stuff we have to drive on and those types of things and even

even something as simple as the tires.

know, I mean, we're driving a lot of gravel roads and stuff.

know Brandy that Steve has mentioned out in Antelope, she actually went and got some
heavier duty tires for her Tesla.

And I've had a couple of flats with the Tesla and you know, I'm driving it in places that
the typical Tesla owner probably isn't going to dare to go, you might say.

And not that I'm abusing the car, just more of the gravel road type things that are harder
on the tires and such.

It's more that country road, rougher roads and such.

Well, and that's kind of interesting.

I you, I get kind of what you're saying and there is an interesting trade off with the
electric pickups is just how damn heavy they are.

And, and so like, there's been a couple I've looked at and I even know of a couple of
local small bridges that have like a 8,000 pound limit, which traditionally would have

been really much of an issue, but you start getting to those like the Chevy Silverado or
something, you're like 1500 over.

But I can't agree with you because yeah, I've taken both our three and our why I didn't
think ever any place that crazy.

But then people like you took it where and it's just like, yeah, that's kind of where we
have to go.

I mean, we do.

We still have one gas vehicle and that's kind of our like actual off road adventure
vehicle.

It's an old Land Rover Defender.

But yeah, for the most part, I think 80 to 90 percent of time you can probably get it's
surprising how far you can get away with like a

a crossover electric vehicle.

Yeah, and I guess to talk about the range piece a little bit.

mean, I think the very, you know, like I mentioned, my first real driving of electric
vehicle was the Rivian and then the F-150 Lightning and then the Tesla.

And it is a factor, the range anxiety, because you're always worried about how far can I
go and where am I going to charge?

uh you know, I think...

I do always carry a portable charger with me.

so, and that's one thing we found too, is oftentimes, you know, folks, it's like the
charging aspect of these vehicles, it seems like it's made to be more complex than it

really needs to be.

I guess if you're talking more level two type charging where if you had a two nut let and,
and I remember, I just remember one time uh me and one of my coworkers took the Rivian

pickup truck out to

Christmas Valley and we went to a hay growers meeting out there.

do a lot of work in the agriculture space around energy projects and stuff.

And the hay growers out there were kind of chuckling at us and they said, well, how are
you guys getting home?

And we're going to drive home.

And we had no issues getting out there and back with the, with the vehicles.

But, you know, I mean, we kind of go prepared to, and I always figured if I needed, you
know, I could.

You know, we know a lot of the farmers and ranchers across the state.

And so we could call one of them and ask if we could plug in their shop for a little bit.

They wouldn't let us live it down, but we're not going to get stranded either type of
thing.

So yeah, but I think range anxiety is real in it.

I remember talking to Steve initially and you know, his experiences, cause it seemed like
he drove his car, you know, wherever he wanted to go.

And, the, technology and the vehicles helps with that.

You got to build some trust with it too.

and stuff and I think I'm at the level now, you know, I've had this Tesla for about a year
and I'm at the level where I've got pretty good trust with it that I know I'm going to get

where I want to go.

I know where the different stations are that I want to use and stuff, but it definitely
takes some trust because there isn't necessarily a charging station on every corner or

every small town, you know, like a fuel station would be or, know, to get, you know,
walking down the road with the gas jug, it's kind of hard to...

a little bit more challenging to do with an electric car if you get stranded or what have
you.

for sure.

I think that kind of plays to when I was talking about the i-5 mentality, because I mean,
just until maybe, it's maybe it's been a little more than two years ago before they put

that supercharger in madras in.

But really before that, and other than that one, there really hasn't been much off 97 or
many of these other kind of rural highway or 197 even.

it was something I want to ask you, I guess kind of playing around that because I think
that's actually one of the speaking at range, that's one of the under

appreciated things when someone's going in to buy like their first electric vehicle is
like efficiency of a vehicle.

I love a lot of the big EV trucks and I just like trucks in general, but like the Model 3
and Model Y, especially the Model 3, that thing can just keep driving and driving and it's

like so much more efficient because I mean, obviously it's a smaller car unto itself, but
um I've just found like that

It you kind of under a pre you see, yeah, it's got like 400 miles of range or something on
some of these trucks.

And then like you actually start driving it and it's like, well, in this situation, yes,
it's 400 miles, but in reality it's this.

And I I've just found like there is kind of a, uh, underutilize or underappreciated like
value in a really efficient small vehicle.

But I think that's kind of why the model three is kind of all around almost pocket knife
kind of vehicle, uh, or like Swiss army knives kind of vehicle.

But I'm kind of curious in your experience, because something I've been noticing when I'm
doing a lot of these big drives into more rural areas is, I'm sure like a DC fast charger

or a fast charger along the way wouldn't say no to it by any means.

But I found a lot of the time I wouldn't even have to stop at a DC fast charger if the
place I was going to just at a level two charger, it probably would have been enough to

just have my meeting and then either top off or whatever.

I could easily make it 100, 200 miles back without ever even having to stop at a charger.

And I think that is something where there's so many headlines about DC fast chargers and
obviously they're great to have.

But especially when you start getting these more rural areas, you're usually out of the
car for so long.

as long as, and once again, that's kind of the advantage of a smaller car is it has such a
bigger impact on how far it can go versus sometimes the truck of like plug into a level

two chart.

I'm just kind of curious with your experience, have you noticed that as well or are you,
do you want to see DC fast chargers?

all along 97 and Eastern Oregon in general.

Yeah, I would agree with you on that.

you hear everybody wants a DC fast charger.

But in reality, we can do a lot of the charging with level two.

And in a lot of cases, the power is available to enable this to do that.

And I think

you know, looking for like the destination chargers, those types of things.

And just a couple of examples I'm thinking of is I remember I had some meetings going on
in Bend and I had a drive from Dewford down to Bend and ah my daughter had a home

basketball game.

And so I couldn't leave here till late.

It was in like February, this most recent February.

And I remember I got down to the hotel and in Bend and I really never looked to see what
charging.

just knew I run Bend.

There'd be some charging.

So wasn't too worried about it.

And I got down there late and most of the parking lot was full and there was only a couple
of empty spots.

And one of two of the spots were actually a Tesla destination chargers.

And I'm like, Oh my God, I'm the luckiest guy in the world.

And I just backed in and I just plugged in and I was there for a day and a half at a
conference.

I mean, obviously the next morning, my car was fully charged, but, um, you know,
definitely, um, you know, like the, pickups and stuff you're getting about.

to somewhere around two miles per kilowatt hour and then the small three I'm getting
closer to four.

So almost double the distance with the same amount of energy.

And so I think, you know, again, that is you're driving these longer distances.

If you don't need that heavier duty pickup or vehicle, definitely, know, essentially in
that case, if a pickup takes two miles per kilowatt hour and this car is taking, you know,

getting four, you're getting twice the mileage and stuff.

The other thing I was kind of chuckling about the other day I was thinking about is quite
a few of the local people, at least in our area, uh that drive quite a ways from work.

Traditionally, what they would, several of our local guys would do is they'd go out and
try to find like a used Volkswagen TDI, you know, turbo diesel, getting 40 miles uh a

gallon and uh then drive that.

And just thinking about, well, this is the new TDI mileage vehicle, you know, for those
folks that are driving.

80 miles round trip or 100 miles round trip for work type of thing.

But yet you can fuel it at home.

just to, know, some of the higher mileage cars have been around, I guess fuel mileage cars
have been around in these rural areas and stuff for years.

This is just kind of a next generation of that.

I think that's really funny you mentioned that because I've definitely known people who do
that as well.

When I was growing up, the thing was like the old Metrogeo.

was just like the ugliest pieces of junk, but they would just keep going forever.

And they barely used any gas.

not only that, it is also just really interesting to see in the last few years, you're
talking kind of like that four miles to kilowatt hour.

I've been driving one the new Model 3s.

And even the all wheel drive one, uh, going from like here to Ben, it gets close to five.

Like it's just crazy at how quickly that is.

It's still, I mean, yeah.

MPGs are kind of progressing and like the traditional fueling combustion engine space, but
it's also well to see that how quickly there is still advances being made.

think, um, you and I, Robert, how many miles we drive least thing usually is a great
option.

But I think for like people who.

Don't hit, like keep it under 15,000 miles a year.

Uh, that's where like the leasing thing actually does kind of make a lot of sense for
people.

Cause some of these lease deals right now are just so cheap and you can get like that kind
of crazy efficiency out of them, especially if you're in a place where there's easy level

to charter and you can charge at home.

just, it really does become kind of the no brainer uh option.

Yeah, that's, I think that's several of folks that Steve and I have talked to that had
pursued the lease options.

And because the rate for the lease was, ah it was kind of surprisingly uh inexpensive and
they blend, know, the lease package includes the available tax credits that may be

available.

And then it kind of factors everything together and, get into a brand new car.

$300 range or what have you, it's electric.

And then you're kind of limiting your exposure to the market and depreciation, some of
those other factors.

And so I think it does definitely make sense for a lot of folks to look at that lease
option.

For me, again, I was trying to limit my entry point, I guess, financially and knew that
I'm in this...

knew that I'm going to put a lot of miles on.

think one of the other questions I've asked a lot of people, like what, how many miles can
I expect to get out of this car?

And like, what do mean?

And I said, well, you know, it used to be, uh, you know, kind of traditional gas vehicle,
if you had a hundred thousand miles on it, that was quite a few miles.

And I said, the gas vehicles, seems like, you know, 150, maybe even 200 miles or 200,000
miles, uh, would be a lot of miles.

I said, what about the electric?

You know, how is that?

And I, you the number I've been told is 300,000.

And so I'm kind of determined to see how many, if I can get 300,000 miles on this car,
mean, you know, I'm nowhere close to that yet, but, know, just thinking about what is the

durability and the life expectancy of the car.

Initially, I was, I was concerned about the battery life and I'm honestly really not
concerned about that now.

I figure I'm a year into it.

I, I've, you know, relatively know.

degrading in the batteries on my car, I still get the same range and mileage that is when
I bought it a year ago and I've put several miles on it.

And so it's going to be interesting to see, you know, the studies I've seen show where the
initial degraded batteries, kind of that first initial period is kind of follows the line

and then it flattens out thinking that the battery is going to last a lot longer.

But I know I get a lot of questions on that from my buddies and stuff.

kind of one of the under another underappreciated thing about especially buying a used
electric vehicle is if you get used to driving that, especially in your case, I mean, a

lot.

mean, it's not just Tesla's, but a lot of them do have kind of extended powertrain
specifically warranties that make buying a used one for especially a new EV driver feel

pretty comfortable about that exact question.

But you're totally right.

It's usually if you get like a vehicle spectrum, it's got like 30 or let alone 50,000
miles on it.

Pretty much all of the majority of the degradation usually has already been done.

And so if you can live within whatever that range is, when you get that used vehicle, you
really should be able to expect kind of a similar thing for out.

I mean, yeah, I mean, I know of a couple of people personally that have already hit over
200,000 in their Model 3s.

And so it just seems like the likelihood of being able to keep that experience and
enjoying that going is pretty likely.

Steve, anything you want to add to that?

Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, the one of the nice things about the EV math
site, I mean, it has all these anecdotes about these rural folks and how much they like

their EVs.

It has a really comprehensive FAQ.

has a really intuitive calculator, but then it also links to uh a number of different sort
of shopping sites.

And one of those is a site that is focused entirely on used vehicles.

uh

It's called findmyelectric.com.

And these are like private party sales, but they also list used vehicles at dealerships.

it's really a nice way to get a really broad cross-section of what used vehicles are
available in your area.

think we're gonna, because something like 70 or 80 % of...

car sales in the United States are actually used vehicles.

And what we're trying to do is make it really easy for folks who might not have $60,000 to
buy a new EV to get into a used one like Robert did.

Well, and I think that's a great call out because two things to follow up on that.

Obviously, Robert, you were able to use the federal tax credit.

I think the used one's also going away in the next couple of months.

But uh I mean, that was a year ago.

I mean, in the past year, it's been wild to me to see how I mean, you're talking about a
new vehicle, Steve at 60.

I mean, you can buy even new EVs now pretty easily in the 30s, let alone the used markets
really expand.

mean, uh

just the other day, this is definitely not the, to me it was like a tempting vehicle to
get because of the range, because you can get a like two year old Mercedes EQS, like what

was a six figure vehicle for like 30 grand now.

Now obviously when something goes wrong with that, that is going to be probably 30 grand,
but ah it's just wild that there are some pretty good deals on the used car market and

it's been interesting to see.

So I think there's a lot to be optimistic about even with some of those things going away.

uh

already seeing just more cost competitive vehicles on both the new and kind of used car
market for electric vehicles.

uh I think with that, just want to say Steve and Robert, thank you both so much.

I know we're kind of coming up at the end of our time here.

Is there anything else either of you guys want to add to today's conversation before we
get going here?

I want to say we're getting ready to release this EVMath program and website.

so I would encourage folks, take a look.

these are really we're trying to focus on the economics ah for folks with a focus in the
rural areas and everything.

So go check that website out, EVMath.

uh

look at some of the case studies on there.

And it's from folks throughout the of Oregon that live in rural areas that are part of
this project.

There's this calculator on there too.

So, know, encourage you to go plug your numbers in and kind of find out, you know, you can
put your electric rate, how much you pay for fuel and mileage and those, kind of, you

know, generate a quick, you know, quick back of the napkin uh calculation on see if it
makes sense for you or not.

So, and then...

chat with folks that have an EV.

Most of us, some of the most interesting conversations I have are at the charging stations
and I've been all kinds of go there and everything.

yeah, just, you know, don't be afraid to explore it.

I think it's my biggest thing.

Cause I was a little reluctant myself initially and really happy I did pursue it.

Yeah, no, I think that's a great point to it on because I'm, I think I'm always
consistently surprised by how many people think an EV won't work for them.

And I think the two best things you can do are exactly that.

Talk to people who have them and then to just kind of get butts in the seats.

And right now, especially with a lot of different EV manufacturers, they're not only can
you do a test drive, you can sometimes do like a 48 hour or like weekend test drive to

really see how it fits into your life.

So I think.

The first stop could be EVMath to kind of get some of those FAQs and kind of see the
cost-effective of how this works in.

But we'll be sure to have today's, the links in today's show notes to access that.

And I think from there, it's a great launching point to see how you can not only make an
EV work in your life, but how uh easy and effective and cost-efficient it is to get one in

your life.

with that, Steve and Robert, thank you so much for coming on today.

Yeah, yeah, thanks for having us.