Good morning, Grid connections listeners.

In this episode, we are thrilled to have Francie Saunders, the always engaging host of the
Out of Spec podcast.

We'll dive deep into Francie's background and learn how the Out of Spec podcast came
alive.

Francie shares her personal journey with her own electric vehicle, the Vinfast VF8,
detailing the challenges she faced during the delivery and leasing process and her

experiences road tripping in her EV.

We discuss the critical importance of firsthand experience with EVs, especially for those
making decisions about regulations and infrastructure within the industry.

It's always important to understand the actual pain points from the EV driving experience
behind the driver's seat.

Francie's insights offer a unique perspective that underscores the need for practical
knowledge in shaping the future of electric mobility.

If you find this episode insightful, we encourage you to share it with at least one other
person who would enjoy it as well.

Don't forget to leave a positive review on our podcast page to help us reach more
listeners just like you.

And with that, enjoy.

just want to say thank you so much for coming on today, Francie.

I really enjoyed being on your podcast yesterday and really looking forward to our
conversation today.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for that intro.

Yeah, it's fun to chat with another fellow podcaster in this space.

And you obviously bring a really interesting perspective.

yeah, I've been enjoying listening to your podcast as well.

So happy to be here.

Well, thank you, Francie.

I just in the unlikely chance someone is not familiar here with you and your work.

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you try to do at the Out of Spec
podcast?

Yeah, so out of spec studios in general is the big company, Kyle Connor started that years
ago now.

And it has just blossomed into really, know, EV electric vehicle reviews, EV
infrastructure, charging reviews, how living with EVs, honestly, everything that touches

EVs we've we've we're making content on because as the industry evolves and expands and
changes, there's a lot to look at

One of the projects under the Out of Speck Studios is the Out of Speck Podcast.

And that is what I was brought on almost nearly a year ago last September to run and
really to revive in a way.

There's a ton to talk about when it comes to electric vehicles.

As you know, it expands into the energy, renewable energy, road tripping, expert
interviews, battery technology, regulation.

I mean, it's really all encompassing.

I've been running the Out of Speck podcast as a way to get people not only breaking news,
but conversations about certain debates when it comes to electric vehicles, charging

behavior, charging etiquette, stuff like that.

And then also expert interviews for people in the space to give us insight into what is
really going on, what are the moving pieces that are making electric vehicle adoption.

more and more attractive, how the grid is changing especially.

So all of that.

So I help host those conversations as well as bring information to anyone who is
interested.

yeah, that's what I've been up to.

We have daily content over there.

So it's a lot.

It's like I've been in university for the past year just studying everything.

And it's been really fun actually.

Yeah.

No, I mean the, the videos and the interviews and everything you guys do, even when it's
just sometimes you talking about a topic is great.

And like I even mentioned yesterday that, it's almost embarrassing for me.

feel like I do a once a week podcast and then I see the work that you're doing and just
pumping them out daily.

So I have mad respect for, not just what you're doing, the quality and the volume of what
you're doing, but let's, you know, and I think what's really cool about your podcast.

Yeah, you're welcome.

It's just the fact that you have a very, and something we kind of strive for here too, is
really approachable and trying to understand.

Cause it is really easy to get them kind of a nerdy EV stuff real quickly.

And I think a lot of our listeners do enjoy that, but it is also something where with a
lot of these topics and how they kind of all, overlap in the realm of electric vehicles

and electric vehicle infrastructure, you have to have kind of a big picture and it's
really unlikely.

someone is going to know a lot about all these different topics.

And so you do a really good job of making it approachable and kind of giving a really
quick but strong base knowledge for what these topics are.

And so I'm kind of curious about like, how did you get involved in this?

I know you'd worked for a charge point operator previously, but even that connection to
the electric vehicle world, how you got into that.

then I am just kind of curious to learn a bit more about how you even got roped in without
a spec in general.

Yeah, it's a good question.

Everyone has their journey and no, and mine has gone a lot of different directions.

But you do note something that I'd like to comment on, which is how I try to make most of
our stuff approachable to anyone who's curious about the topic, while it is easy to get

into the nitty gritty details.

And we like that.

And we like talking about the tech.

Yeah, and getting really granular and nerdy about it.

It's also, I've had people specifically reach out to say,

I know that you could get into the weeds here, but I also appreciate coming at it from a
big picture because that's what's also been really rewarding about this work is being able

to bring facts to anyone that I speak to with any sort of opinion or knowledge base or
lack thereof on electric vehicles and just share what I've learned in a way that is

approachable.

And that does kind of harken back to my background.

I studied natural sciences in school.

I studied biology really, and I taught a lot as well.

So I was always a teacher's assistant in college and university, teaching assistant,
whatever they call it.

And that was really fun.

So I got to take these complicated concepts about science and communicate them to hundreds
of maybe even thousands of students and their different minds.

And that was really fun for me to figure out how can I take this complicated topic and
make it so that anyone can understand it with their different background or the different

way that they think about the world.

So I was always passionate about

conservation, really, sustainability.

I specifically studied animal behavior.

So it's like, how did she get over here?

Well, after graduating, I worked in research and I do love research.

I think research is awesome.

But in the scientific and the academia realm, there's a lot of research that is done that
has amazing findings on even solutions to issues that exist in our world.

But who's taking those solutions and putting them into action?

So

quickly and easily saw that business was a really great way to do that and try to make a
business model out of it, you know, find either find funds or create funds to alleviate

some sort of issue in the world.

So that led me on to more school where I studied sustainable enterprise with the more
entrepreneurship background.

And that was really great.

Colorado State University has a incredible program with a global student body, and it was
just really amazing.

So after that, I got linked up with EVGO.

So that is EV charging infrastructure.

I think it was a cool opportunity to go into the business development side of things that
I found a strong suit in and got a great opportunity, had a great boss over there, Tony,

who I think is still there.

And that's when I first really got introduced to electric vehicle infrastructure.

And it was interesting to get that background because now I look at things very big
picture.

But to know how those teams are working to put in this infrastructure and what the
challenges are and what even the teams behind it all look like, I think gives me really

cool insight when I'm talking about all this stuff.

And I then got the opportunity to run this project with Kyle and without a spec.

And I said, okay, that's very different from what I've been doing, but I have a creative
mindset and I want this challenge.

I'm going to go after it and see what happens.

And it's been a wonderful opportunity, met amazing people so far.

And like I said, I've learned so much and it's been a real pleasure to do it.

And I've loved how many people are so engaged and passionate about this topic, which I'm
sure that you experience as well.

There are people who don't even drive electric, but want to know all of the details that
people are experiencing and the technicalities and how it's all evolving.

It's quite an interesting study, in

For sure.

And I think that actually makes a lot more sense now because you're totally right.

The way to approach it with not only just being open to it, but to go into the nitty
gritty, you do kind of need that academic and kind of teaching experience and to be able

to do that effectively because, for sure.

I think the, the downside, sometimes the academic world is you have a lot of great smart
people, but they're not always the best teachers, especially on the college

And so it's really great to see someone who has both that balance of being able to teach
something and know the subject matter, but also to be an active learner.

And sometimes that is not, that is one of the areas where a lot of people have struggled
in it.

It's kind of interesting to hear your take on it.

Cause that was one of the areas in my own kind of, school experiences where I kind of did
want to see something where it takes these learnings and these interesting topics, but

also make it actionable in the real world.

And went through account when entrepreneurship,

school and program and also, Simone's arms myself.

So I think that that's just awesome to hear.

that I did not fully appreciate that.

Now I think I understand why I've always enjoyed your content so much, but with that,
yeah, you're welcome.

You're welcome.

so how did you like looking at working with the charge point operator?

What, what do you kind of going into that?

I mean, you knew that obviously EVs there's environmental benefit, there's a business
model there,

Can you share like what were the things that being new to really stood out to you or kind
of surprised you about that industry?

Mm I think I did find it interesting the difference in responsibility, which is kind of
what we talked about on the podcast yesterday.

working for a charge point operator, how this company was the one putting in the
infrastructure and even my job was making partnerships with the automakers as well.

So the partnerships are a symbol of how a bridge had to be built to the automakers to
engage them.

in the experience that their customers were having with EV charging.

So I got to, I think, really learn from that point of view what's valuable to the
automakers.

What do they think is valuable to their customers?

What do they, which we can see publicly as well, but like what do they project as their
plans for their EV plans or yeah, like their future plans and how sometimes, and even

their sales and

there is a perspective from the charge point operator side of things that's like, okay,
well, we know at which pace these automakers are moving and they say they have these

goals, but we have to see how they play out.

So I think it was just the difference in perspective as well from what technically they
both had interest in, let's get this infrastructure up so people can have a good

experience, but coming from very different side of things and different like bureaucracy
even, it was interesting to see how the decisions were made and.

where the value was held on both sides.

I think that was pretty enlightening because some automakers, as you know, have moved very
swiftly and have not only in making EVs, but also either building the infrastructure

themselves or subsidizing it tremendously or not at all.

And now we're seeing much more of a shift where everyone kind of wants to do that in terms
of the automakers.

And I thought that was pretty interesting.

And just honestly how I wasn't on the public policy team.

or anything like that, but EVgo has a whole team that helps states understand the best
ways to fund EV infrastructure, build it out, write their NEVI plans and proposals and all

of that.

And there's people that are just really learning about all the policies that exist, the
ones that are not necessarily helpful to expanding infrastructure like this, but also the

insight into this is why it takes so long.

This is the permitting, like technically you could get a site up and running.

if you didn't have to wait for permits or transformers maybe, but really insight into all
those timelines.

So I think learning the complexity was very, very valuable in the process because from
this side of things, folks can just be like, well, why isn't it being built out?

But as you and I know, there's a lot to work

once you start learning this, you're like, okay, I get that some of these experiences that
EV drivers are having are kind of horrible.

But at the same time, you're like, you realize the amount of not only different hoops that
have to be jumped through, but all of these unexpected challenges that are just behind the

scenes that like, can't even talk about.

I really like what you just kind of said there about from the charge point operator side,
because I think it's really cool to hear your perspective about because

I think a lot of what we hear is usually a little bit more of the press release thing, or
it's either they just aren't saying much these days.

And so I think it's a lot of it's known, but once again, it's just one part of the full
picture.

And, I think like we were even talking about just having a series of breaking down all
these different ways you could look at the different topics.

And yeah, we barely even scratch the charge point operator side of it.

We were more time about utilities, but that was such a fun conversation.

Can't talk about the question.

We both get a

about what is taking so long for these DC fast chargers to go on the ground.

so I'm kind of curious, you mentioned, I mean, you started, so you did, you pretty much
came straight from the ChargePoint operator to Out ofSpec, correct?

So really, as you mentioned, you've been doing the podcast for just under a year now.

And I mean, once again, just to throw like so much credit to you, I think you've been
doing it for less than a year.

I've been doing it off and on for four years and yet you've done way more episodes and
under here than I have.

But what's really interesting is, can you share like those, a little bit more about what
it was that the automakers kind of were like sharing with you as to what they found

important and not important.

And in those essentially about three years between when you started that role and now have
you seen those automakers shift?

in kind of their positioning of what is important to them and what they believe may be
important to their customers.

Yeah, that's a great question because it definitely has shifted, I believe, because no one
knew anything and everyone was looking to each other for the expertise that would tell

them this is worth the investment or this is what is going to pay off.

But as we all kind of automakers initially, especially with Electrify America and
Volkswagen Group and all those brands under that car, free charging, unlimited charging.

Right.

this many years.

And even Tesla did that with the supercharger network.

And some people are still benefiting from that today.

But I think those plans initially were like, OK, if we're going to sell the cars, let's
give them free charging.

And the infrastructure is still kind of fresh.

But as we've seen, there are consequences to that, not only from the behavior at the
chargers, but I think really understanding what is

of best benefit to the customer.

Like, do the customers really need free charging or do they need infrastructure that is
always reliable and where they want it to be?

So I think in the beginning, it was like, yeah, make the incentives that come along with
the car really delicious so that folks will buy this electric vehicle over a Tesla,

really.

And I think the public opinion as well as probably the, you know, the private opinion has
changed where like maybe unlimited options aren't the best, maybe a credit.

So you get

this many dollars or this many kilowatt hours on a network of charging.

Like here, we are investing a bit into your experience as a driver at charging.

But I think that hopefully continues to shift more towards automakers don't need to just
pay for your charging.

They need to be, like I said a bunch of times now, but like have skin in the game when it
comes to electric vehicle infrastructure.

So I think I've seen that shift.

But also there was a significant focus that I do think is maintained.

that the access to dynamic data of basically where are these chargers, are they available,
what's their state of being at this point in time, and how can my customers access it

without having to use a bunch of apps, that's still of interest.

And I think, one, automakers really wanted to keep their drivers within their ecosystem.

So if you're driving this brand of car, only using that branded app to do all of your
charging, like the Tesla.

Again, not to reference them all the time, but they do set pretty good examples in a lot
of ways.

And I think that's fine, but also we don't even need an app.

feel like just the software focused vehicles with the best capability for plug and charge,
which are also waiting for standardization.

So I think that focus was good and they were definitely open about that, but they often
were very intentional about the partnerships that they were making because I think

those initial partnerships were like, yeah, let's go, let's throw in the unlimited
charging programs.

But then they saw how quickly the market was changing and how it was a little bit
unpredictable on what was successful, not in terms and only in terms of their strategies,

but also which charge point operators are doing the best work.

How are they building it out?

Sometimes automakers would think about their own charging hubs, like I want to build my
own charging hub.

It's all branded.

But then they'd be like, what is the price tag on that?

I'm not so sure about that.

Yeah, exactly.

But now they're shifting, you know, with like, IANA or Mercedes putting a billion dollars
into their Mercedes Benz high power charging network, all of that.

So I'm excited to see that shift.

But it was interesting to see really where, like what kind of requests for proposals they
would put out and what kind of projects they were wanting to do.

And then

even like years later, they've actually when they've moved on those kind of things, it
seems they're they're a bit different.

So I think they are being trepidatious, which is I think okay in this industry, I guess.

What do

Well, what I think is you just brought up like 12 ,000 different things we could discuss
right there, but that's super fascinating.

I think the first thing, going back exactly to what you're telling about, about like the
actual charging experience.

And one of the things I've said and kind of giving, once again, Tesla credit, and really
any, charging experience should be, you just plug in and walk away and it works because,

this even kind of goes back to not look, not only the conversation we had yesterday, but
kind of like business one -on -one entrepreneurship, like for disruptive technology to

take off, it doesn't have to be just as good.

It has to be better.

And for like the current system of just going up to a gas station, swiping your credit
card and you play a fuel your car.

It's, it's not a hundred percent perfect, but it's pretty easy.

The, the, the bar is easy for really anyone to do it.

And so with the plugin charge, it's even easier.

It's like you do it.

You set it up once you walk away, plug in, you can go use the bathroom, do whatever and
not even have to think about

However, and this kind of goes how we were talking about yesterday about like the
different phases of charging.

talk about the app side and that is totally true.

How there's been so many bad apps that you have to download.

Then you have to put in your credit card.

It doesn't have like Apple pay or Google pay.

So you have to like do all this stuff, go through all these steps and then it crashes.

And then I even remember how a lot like the old level two and some of the early DC fast
charges didn't even have an app.

had like, have to have the RFID card to make it work and unlock it.

And then it charged you at a certain rate.

Now I just feel

That's been like over a decade of just Tesla kind of started what they're doing.

It's been working and we're now just finally seeing through some of it being
standardization and things that did kind of need to happen, but finally kind of getting

onto this more universal.

even then a lot of the EVs and cars still coming out can't support it, which is really
unfortunate.

So that is one thing that just when you talked about there really comes to mind.

And then I think, I think a second part too was.

You kind of talk about how these perspectives of the automakers have shifted.

And you also talk about like good or bad.

The autumn, the automotive industry is known for moving pretty slow, pretty glacially.

And it's kind of been pulled into this new era of having to do EVs.

then now, as we also talked about yesterday, having to figure out charging infrastructure,
it's become clear they can't have the same old model of just having gas stations.

They have to have the,

actual fueling and kind of charging experience kind of thought out actually for these EV
owners.

But I am kind of curious bringing that topic up.

We've been getting obviously the big narrative, this kind of year so far as EV sales are
crashing.

No one's actually moving EVs, but I'm, I am kind of curious.

Like once you start pulling back the numbers, the EV growth as a percentage is still
growing at a pretty good clip.

this recent quarter just

Evie's aside, a lot of automakers had a really bad quarter.

And I'm not just, I like combustion vehicles, like a lot of these Ford and Nissan had
really bad quarters with some of these announcements kind of coming out for their

financials.

And so I'm kind of curious with some of the contacts, maybe you still have, are you seeing
automakers again, change their perspective and are you hearing kind of them maybe slowing

down or kind of backpedaling a little bit in some of these.

ways they're going about charging infrastructure and just EVs in general, unfortunately.

yeah, I totally I mean, I've covered some of those like headlines and broken down what's
really happened because a lot of the headlines are like Ford divests and delays their

battery manufacturing plan or their EV production plan.

And they I mean, it is kind of a tough time in the economy and especially over the past
year, where it seems like a lot of automakers again had like lofty goals, big goals, big

investments that they either said they were doing or

doing and then they were like, wait, let's actually, yeah, pump the brakes.

Not necessarily, I think, as we know from the numbers that the market is tanking or
anything or that people don't want EVs, but I think more again to reprioritize exactly how

we should build it up because like Tesla, for instance, they started with the cars and now
they basically, I mean, from my point of view, like we're able to sell millions and

millions of Teslas and now kind of

the part of their business that is like Tesla power with the batteries and the solar and
everything, this more expensive side maybe and let that grow up and now drop the prices in

the EV.

So basically it's like, you know, kind of looking at what can really benefit us right now
and thinking long -term.

So I think that did those headlines where some automakers have delayed production, stuff
like that.

It doesn't help, especially when people hang on to headlines.

or little clips so deeply in their opinion about things lately.

So I do love the chance to break those down and analyze them.

And I think that that's okay to happen because I do think automakers should be
prioritizing things most effectively so that they're building quality stuff and not

rushing to get something to market and actually not having it be a good product because
we've seen that too, where EVs have come out and we've been

Are you sure you were done?

Is this supposed to come out yet?

perfect example of that is the podcast you recently did with Jordan about kind of Toyota
and some of their announcements and the EVs they've brought to market of just being

really, unless you were just that sold on the brand and just need a second car for around
town, it really misses the market.

a lot of things that a modern EV really needs to have and kind of doesn't a hundred
percent aligned with the messaging they're making as a company and where they want to move

to.

There, there was just a lot, there was a lot of really interesting things that I think

Probably people who follow the automotive industry have seen, but I really appreciate just
the recent summary you guys had done on that.

Thanks.

Yeah, that's a point of curiosity there for sure, which is Toyotas and even Subaru,
Honda's approach a bit to electric, which is not as full -fledged forward as some other

automakers have been with like, here's a lineup.

We're really trying to make these cars great.

It's more like, okay, we put one out on the market.

And then there's interesting things to see regulation

For instance, it's coming out of California where they are pushing for all new vehicle
sales by 2035 to be electric, but they are imposing certain guidelines as well.

Like the battery has to last this many miles or this amount of time and it has to be this
big.

And basically thinking about state of health as well, which is also forward thinking and
considering the consumer.

So it's interesting to see that play where it's like, yeah, you're gonna be, if you're
gonna wanna sell cars,

in that state, they're going to have to be electric, but you can't just put anything on
the road, which is a cool take too.

But yeah, it's been interesting to see how the automakers have gone about it.

I would love to see more small EVs.

What about you?

I think I agree with that.

and I think there's been some interesting ones actually made.

They're just not here in the U S they're usually in Europe or China.

but now let's, I'm curious, why don't you, why don't you kind of go with that?

What, are some things that would either be in kind of your ideal small EV or things, other
EVs you've seen that, you'd really like to see

I walking around, I got to go to France earlier this year and being in the city of Paris
was really fun because there are EVs everywhere, not only from like the VW ID buzz, which

is fun and cool.

And it's not small, I'll admit, but it's it's cool.

And and and Mercedes vans, Vans, there are so many of those.

like the tiny little cars like this, the Amis, the Citroen Amis, which are basically like
shoeboxes on wheels that run on electric, I think.

Those are such city cars that unfortunately they don't really tend to fit in our culture
for some reason.

But I would love to see those small options.

And it does seem a bit more European though, like the Fiat 500E and I mean the Twizy
isn't, I don't even know if that's really considered a car or not, or if it's just a.

almost on the edge of like a high -end electric golf cart.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I think things like that, but those are kind of very the micro like the microlini.

They're very micro.

And I think something in between, I mean, the like the maybe the crossover size as well.

I'm not like the VINFAST VF8 that I've been able to drive around.

I think like that's a good size.

It's not huge.

It's not the most impressive EV, but you can fit.

It's like the Subaru Outback size, which is what I've been driving for many, many years
now.

that you can do anything and you can get anywhere.

You can have a family, you can have dogs, but you can also just be one person and not feel
like you're taking up the whole road that in between space.

But I think there's more and more competition here.

But of course, in China with like BYD and all those cars and their market competition that
has just been like going over and over in that market because they've been kind of insular

as they can't come into the US really.

That's been cool to see as well.

So would love to see

The trucks are cool, the SUVs are cool, but this middle ground becomes stronger because I
think that's more of what people want as well.

Yeah, I think it's just, it kind of just depends on the situation.

And I just had a, couldn't remember the name of it.

I thought it was that, but the Honda E I've always thought it's a really cool, small
electric vehicle.

but it's not here in the U S I think some of the challenges with some of these smaller
ones obviously have been safety, but then a lot of it is just, market demand for those

usually aren't that great.

I think one of the older EVs that's a small that is actually an awesome, I've always had
an awesome one, but it's so ugly is the BMW i3.

It drives great.

It's actually super safe because it's all a carbon fiber.

And I think got a lot of hate, but if you've ever actually driven one or use them around,
like especially in a urban environment, they're so easy to just drive.

But obviously then their Achilles heel is the longer range.

So I think there

This is always kind of like the interesting dichotomy that like, especially car
enthusiasts and like people, there is a group of people that live in cities, but like the

actual buying size, at least speaking of North America is always just never, at least not
in the recent decade or two been enough for like small cars to make enough of a comeback.

And it would be interesting to see maybe a brand or some just like focus purely on that,
domestically.

mean, right now.

I mean, yeah, the I three isn't made anywhere.

So like a small car is like the model three or something like that.

And in a lot of ways it's really not that small.

But, if I was to choose one for here, yeah, I think that probably would be just like my go
-to for like a daily driver, just fun, fast, sporty, but also kind of go into what you're

saying.

Like traditionally, I also had a bunch of super outbacks growing up.

I drove one until like a hit 326 ,000 miles and just finally broke on the side of a
highway.

And

it's like probably also really ugly.

But it's probably the most utilitarian vehicle there is out there.

Good gas mileage, good ground clearance, so can do a lot of stuff.

And like you say, great for dogs, great for Home Depot runs and all that stuff.

But at the same time, I'm really happy to while they're not fully optimized yet, I think
there's still big headwinds.

It's really great to see more SUV, electric SUV and electric truck options just because
there do need to be electric options for every part of the market.

Mm -hmm.

is kind of funny because there are now electric, large electric vehicles and that small
kind of area hasn't, still kind of missing.

I think the closest thing we really have.

mean, there was also the bolt for a while, but right now that's going to have production
too.

So it's kind of like model three and stuff around that size, but there really isn't too
much

it is interesting because if I start to think about it in our like, we love road trips,
you and I personally, but also generally the people in the US and in North America, we

love our road trips, we'll go as far as we can.

So if you start thinking about the smaller size, obviously, you're limited by range due to
just, you know, the inherent specs of something that's small.

So you might as well go big so that those one even if it's just once a year that you do
the road trip, you can do it versus

other countries and especially Europe that has incredible public transport systems that
mean that you can get really far and you don't need a car.

And when you're in your city or whatever it is, or just bopping around, you can enjoy a
smaller car.

I think that I wonder how much that plays in, but I'm sure it's, I mean, we don't have
like trains all over quite like

I mean, that is a whole podcast or podcast series right there about essentially you go
back and I mean, this is a very few people really know about this, but that's like a big

reason I don't want to ever drive a Chevy or GM product is because of what like happened
with them and staring oil to rip up so many of the train tracks and kind of local smaller.

kind of commuting public options that was, think, back in essentially the fifties.

And I know that's a really kind of bizarre chip to have on a shoulder, but it totally is a
thing.

I love trains and all this stuff and it is great to like travel the Europe and you see so
many of the options that they have there.

And especially not only is it reliable, but it's, if you miss one, it's not going to be
eight hours till the next one or something.

It's like, it might be 15 minutes and that makes it much more practical.

having said that there is also kind of the double -edged sword of like the Americana
mindset of just the freedom of having that vehicle, having that SUV or whatever to go

wherever you want.

And you're right, there is kind an interesting balance.

Like that's why I really enjoyed road tripping.

Don't get me wrong.

I would love it had like a little bit more range and charged faster, but that is what's
kind of like the right thing about the Model Y is it's still really aerodynamics.

You get pretty good range, pretty good efficiency, still plenty of room for stuff.

without it being like too big and still kind of drives fun, but you're right.

There's still, we're still kind in this, I think when it comes to the actual electric
vehicles, we might be in like the fourth inning to use a sports metaphor and in some of

these other stuff, like seeing like electric semis and even electric trucks, I think those
are more like the first inning or something.

There's still little ways to go to kind of polish those and get those completely delved in
and at scale.

Mm -hmm, totally.

Yeah, and even I've seen folks approach the the semi is interesting because it's this
medium and heavy duty trucks that are obviously hard to electrify, but they have the

biggest impact when it comes to emissions.

So we'd love to do that.

But then like one company range energy, like they're working with the propulsion of the
the trailer behind the semi.

So that can be electric and you can.

push the semi forward and it's like, yeah, they're still in the first inning figuring out,
okay, what is the best approach?

Is it making a cab?

Is it making the semi, the engine and turning it electric?

Or maybe we look to back of it and see how we can apply it that way.

Yeah, I think there's definitely some advantages just to doing the trailer electrified
because, well, it's not fully electrifying the system.

There's some huge, pollution and kind of other things that are unlocked.

And it's a really great stepping stone to really make people more comfortable with the
technology.

And I think get them on the road faster.

And I think it's kind of interesting.

was doing an article recently, kind of looking at the hyped up pros of hydrogen and their

practicalities and the realities of them.

And I was going through all these articles that were like two decades old saying, it's 10
years away.

And it's like, well, now it's been more than 10 years and we know it's not that close.

And obviously kind of the big discussion lately has been hydrogen for trucking and there's
some use case, but God, the more I looked at, realized, wow, it is not a strong argument

because the energy density of hydrogen has always been, it's kind of a keely seal.

and so, or everyone always talks about the, energy density by weight.

where it's like, yeah, there's, it's kind of an interesting thing.

But when you start actually looking at the practicality of it, you have to have these
massive tanks.

You're not actually getting that much range.

so even a hydrogen truck, while it may refuel faster, it still has to go.

It can only go about 500 miles before it has to stop.

And that's kind of where we are with like the Tesla semi and some of the upcoming battery
electric semis

while there's still some of the missing infrastructure for that, that still seems like a
much clearer future and picture than all this hydrogen refueling and the majority of

hydrogen anyway, not being made in a cleaner, sustainable way.

So what's the point?

From the infrastructure side to that, it's just, it's, it was just really fascinating to
have that conversation again.

And when it looks, when you look at that industry, and coincidentally, a in mind, he lives
in the Midwest and sells Volvo trucks, he moved out there.

And so he's like in it.

He knows like he's as he, I mean, he's one of those funny guys that says like, I never get
an EV, but I might get a Tesla.

Those are kind of cool.

And it's like that kind of mindset where I like talking with him because it is more like
as far out there as he can in a lot of ways, but it kind of gives you just kind of the

skeptic approach, but also like what's the reality and what is actually needed for
trucking.

And so like a modern semi obviously can go like if you get like fully decked out, yeah, it
can go like 1500 miles.

But with modern regulation of truck drivers, it's like, actually, if you can hit that like
five to 600 mile mark, they have to stop anyway.

And they have to stop for 30 minutes and it kind of does align well with that charging.

so you get that infrastructure kind of match point.

But, that's a whole nother podcast.

I guess we're talking about cars and what we found really interesting electrified.

I don't know if there's anything else you want to add to that, but I, I really want to
hear your experience with your own electric vehicles.

Cause you have a very unique.

not just car, but everything from the buying and driving it day to day has been pretty
different than I think what most people are familiar

Totally.

Yeah, one comment on the hydrogen thing is it is crazy.

It's like the highest energy density by mass of any known substance.

Of course, we want to explore that.

I, as like with my scientist background, try everything, right?

And have a realistic point of view.

Like, where could this actually be applied?

Is it passenger vehicles?

I don't know.

Probably not.

And, you know, there's a lot of work to do there.

So I think some people are like, why are we even trying?

Because it's cool.

because we should.

But.

And I, and don't get me wrong.

I think there's definitely a point for, hydrogen like green hydrogen as a color, but it
just seemed like the more I did check it again recently, the only use cases I could see

was like heavy manufacturing where you have plenty of space to store all these hydrogen,
which needs to figure out.

there are economic reasons for going that for them.

So like that made sense, but for transportation, it just kind of runs into a of these
issues.

yeah, I guess that that could be its own podcast.

Yeah, it could.

It could.

And so I just think the general approach is like that we get to take is being curious
about it.

Like, why would people want to try it?

And then, yeah, is it really is it really here?

But and you also talked about talking with your friend who, you know, works in the
trucking industry.

And again, I just want to highlight how fun it is because we get all the facts from the
work that we do.

And then we can come just with that point of view and be able to hear

objectively and like unbiased and be like, okay, and here's my input based on the facts
that I know.

And again, I just think that that's so fun.

But yeah, speaking of that, I get to give my honest input on the Vinfast VF8 that I have
been driving around.

Like I said, I had a Subaru Outback and I haven't had the chance to, or I had not had the
chance.

I've driven plenty of EVs.

We have Teslas in the family

I'm obviously familiar with electric vehicles, but own my own?

Not quite.

sometimes that is, know, folks just don't have the financial freedom to buy a new electric
vehicle.

Maybe they're apprehensive, but electric vehicle leases, I'm sure as you've seen, have
been sometimes crazy, crazy cheap.

There's like, yeah.

that one in Colorado for the Nissan Leaf and I, think personally, financially, I'm never a
fan of leases, but that one, what was it again?

Do you know?

The Nissan Leaf, it was like 2024 to and trim S and it was advertised as like twenty
dollars a

Yeah.

for like zero dollars down or something.

I mean, absolutely crazy.

home for the electricity and everything, it just like, okay, yeah, why wouldn't you try

yeah, get some solar on your roof if you're lucky and then put in an EVSE.

Yeah, and just absolutely it could.

I mean, it's not free and we've broken down the cost analysis, but it's it is a very, very
inexpensive car.

And yeah, I think most people wouldn't recommend leasing things in general.

Like sometimes it's great to be getting that equity.

I do love to argue that with EVs.

I don't know.

Maybe a lease is quite free, especially if it's inexpensive.

And as we've seen, the technology

exponentially advancing at a crazy rate.

those people who are on the fence, it is kind of a easy way to give it a try.

So I completely agree until I understand that.

Yeah, that's what I've been doing too.

It's so fun because people will call me and they're like, I'm thinking of getting a new
car.

And I'm like, well, and they're like, I don't know if I want to go hybrid or plug -in
hybrid or electric.

I'm like, lease an electric car.

Try it.

You could just try it.

It's temporary.

You never have to go to the gas station.

You can charge it home.

Hey, this one's got crazy leases so far.

So that's been fun.

And I think it is like a way to dip your toe in the waters and come out two, three years
later.

and be able to make an even more informed decision on what EV you want to buy if you want
to buy one by then.

And then fast, there was a dealership in North Carolina earlier this year that had a
limited time.

Then fast.

that have tell us more about this Vinfast company.

this another Silicon Valley startup?

This, yeah.

Good question.

Yes.

No, it's not.

Vinfast is an automaker that is from Vietnam.

It's a Vietnamese automaker and they are part of this big conglomeration out of Vietnam
called Vin Group.

And Vin Group has a lot of different, like it's a big umbrella company.

So it has a lot of different revenue streams, business models under it.

And one of them is Vinfast.

So that is their fully electric line

vehicles and if you go to Vietnam, you'll see different models of VINFAST all around.

But if you drive around the US, you probably won't, maybe unless you're in California or
you pass me somewhere.

So they're a new automaker when they first came on the scene in North America and debuted
the VINFAST VF8.

So it's like a SUV crossover, four door, plenty of room.

It had the worst reviews.

out there.

The absolute worst reviews.

People were having an absolute ball driving this car and talking about how horrible it
was.

So that was the reputation of this automaker as it came into this market.

And it was pretty, I mean, it was just kind of like a bummer.

Okay, they made a not a really poor EV.

A year later, they come out, they've, they do have improvements, and it's maybe not the
worst one on the market, but that is its reputation.

I joined the team.

I don't have an electric vehicle to drive around.

So Kyle says, hey, we found this crazy lease deal in North Carolina and it's advertised at
least a $0 down, $250 a month for a 2020 -23, then fast VF8 Eco trim, which is the more

efficient trim of the car.

The plus is the one above, a little bit more expensive, but it's for this offering.

We should take it.

And so we drove out there.

and started to navigate that.

So Kyle had called ahead to the dealership and we even had a little bit of trouble.

Please do.

I've watched that episode and it is so fascinating and so entertaining.

So I'll try to make sure to put a link to it in the show notes, but I'm sorry.

Continue.

It was very fun to watch.

just, the going back and forth and I like the whole experience about whether it's because
out of spec has kind of notoriety in the EV space that they were trying to do everything

they could to shut down from this even happening.

But I want you to tell the story and share your experience with it since yeah, you're the
ones living

We were driving out there and we call just to like double check like, hey, we're driving
out there from Tennessee to North Carolina to come get this deal.

And they were like, actually, we don't have any more to give you.

And we were like, no way that all the VINFAST VF8s that you had available are gone.

What's going on?

So that was a little bit curious.

It turns out there was an issue with the software that was on those cars at that point in
time.

that we're maybe making them go into like limp mode, turtle mode, going really slow out of
nowhere.

And I think they were trying to navigate, not saying, hey, we have this problem, so we're
not going to give you this car, but hey, they're not available, so we're going to not give

you this car.

So we said, well, we're coming out anyways.

So hopefully you can find a car for us.

So we get there.

And like you said, Chase, it took like two days to finally achieve this lease for the
VinFast VF8.

And I don't.

Like the dealership was honestly really helpful.

They're a fresh, Leith, Leith, L -E -I -T -H is the big dealership.

They have like many dealerships and they decided for some reason to be a Vinfast
dealership.

So it was like this empty building that just had like new Vinfast branding everywhere and
these folks that were slinging and dealing Vinfasts all over

People were in this dealership who had seen the advertisement on Facebook or in the
newspaper for this lease deal.

And they were like, well, I don't even know.

I've never heard of this car.

I've never driven electric, but it's a really cheap lease deal.

Why not?

And I mean, that shows that people are eager to try something new at the very least and
have a good lease deal, which might be surprising.

But folks were walking out of there also buying the car that we met.

It was, yeah, kind of wild because it

technically like a startup in a way and you don't have a ton of security, I think,
compared to others.

so interesting now, kind of like with hindsight being 2020 with the whole Fisker, Fisker
ocean experience and seeing how all that went and.

Vinfast also then partnering with the dealership brand as opposed to all these other kinds
of startups doing it all themselves and trying to have their own network.

But I just found it was just so fascinating to, and what's crazy, you're right.

Like looking at the Nissan Leaf lease deals, those are just insane.

But when this even came out at like 250, like that was a crazy deal.

And did that

Because one of the big reasons some of the EV leases have been pushed forward is they can
then use the $7 ,500 as kind of the money down to get around the tax grand stuff.

Was this even before that qualified, or did it just qualify for it if you leased it for
the $7 ,500 tax credit?

Do you remember?

OK, it did.

at least it had some qualifications because, we had to navigate.

We had to just like, you know, they had to deal with the DMV.

But yeah, it it did qualify, which is interesting, because, yeah, a lot of this has
changed just since then.

Like the idea of one, a good EV lease, apparently 250 is expensive now.

And yeah, and they did have the tax incentive at that point.

I'm pretty sure I have that right.

I don't know why I don't remember it exactly, but.

watched it.

just can't remember if it had qualified at that point for the lease.

I'd imagine it probably did, but it would have been a pretty new thing if it did at that
point, kind of probably adding to that dealerships confusion.

But yeah, I mean, the fact that you've traveled this far, I mean, this is my West coast
ignorance.

What?

I mean, that's probably about a thousand miles, right?

From Tennessee to 800.

Okay.

Yeah.

I, yeah, it's a decent trip.

You go out

You're not only wanting to get the vehicle, you're so dedicated.

You're at this dealership for hours and then come back the next day, stay a night at a
hotel to get this thing that you expect it would have been done in no time.

And what, were some of the things that they were kind of saying or kind of telling you to
slow this

It was this, we're not sure that it'll be ready for you.

We're not sure when it will be ready for you.

have engineers coming from VINFAST to make sure that the software update is not only
downloaded and installed correctly, but that the outcome from it is what we want it to be.

So that is kind of what it was.

Like we can't really speed along this process and I gotta talk to the guy upstairs, know,
and wait, I think that refers to like

I'm an innocent figure, but you know, the boss around here.

And yeah, so was kind of putting it off like we have something to do.

We have engineers here that are making sure it's cool to be taken.

And so we were like, OK, well, I guess we'll just wait until we can have it.

And Kyle even had to leave and go do other out of spec stuff.

And we had driven a Model Y out there.

So my stepmom's Model Y.

And so I was just like, OK, am I going to end up with two cars and

no way to get them back.

But luckily, my colleague Jordan, who's amazing, came out and when we finally got the
lease done and all in all, of course, there's fine print, there's delivery fees, there's

all these fees when it comes in with the lease and with money upfront.

it it kind of it matched up pretty well.

It's a bit more expensive than $250 a month if you don't put like extra money upfront.

But it is still a cheap lease deal and we got it.

And now I'm driving around with

the Venfast VF8 and Jordan and I immediately road tripped it back 800 miles.

He was in the Model Y and I was in the VF8.

So we got to see that side by side comparison, apples to oranges kind of.

But yeah, it was fun.

And now I've gotten to drive around what is this quote unquote worst reviewed car and
reveal that it's really not the worst.

It has some features that other EVs don't have.

It has things that are quirky, but

When I, it would spin so fascinating to kind of listen and hear about your experience with
it because you're right.

was reviewed.

like, when you look at essentially what's happened, like in the last hell, could say five
years, but especially the last year or two in the EV startup space, you look at, once

again, look at Fisker, like, okay, it's a new business, but it started by a guy.

had one failure, of course, the original Fisker thing, but he's worked in the automotive
industry for years.

This new kind of EV startup model where

You look at what Tesla now Rivian and lucid are more or less kind of figured out still
scaling, but they there's like a model for it.

So you're like, okay, this guy has been the automotive industry for decades.

He can figure that out.

He can make it work.

Fine.

I'm sure they'll, they'll do something.

A Vietnamese large corporation making a their first automotive thing really, especially
electric bringing it to the US.

So it's a brand.

There's all of these things.

Like it has all the red flags for it.

And then especially how

the, how bad the reviews were, the software issues that it had all the red flags of that
being the company that would have gone bankrupt by now.

And I just think it's so fascinating.

And then to hear your experience that, where.

Like to some extent, lucid struggled with software, Fisker really struggled with software.

And that's where they kind of kind of had their Achilles heel on.

That's what kind of caused them to go under among other things, but that really just had
such a bad customer experience that they started getting all these negative customer

views.

Whereas maybe there's some arguments you can make about the hardware of a van fast, but
it's at least like middle of the road enough that there's nothing really wrong with it, at

least so far.

and hopefully there won't be, but they were able to at least come in with that software
layer and do a pretty big one 80.

It sounds like in your ownership experience of the vehicle to make it something you
actually enjoy and are, would you even say you recommend it even

I would recommend people to lease it similarly to what I did.

I don't know if I would tell someone to buy it because the MSRP is like 48, maybe 52 for
the plus trim.

Some people bought it and some people are just like, like they have that ability to not
only spend that much, but they're like, yeah, I want to try something new.

Yeah, exactly.

And not have much on the line.

So I and my dad, who's driven Tesla since 2018.

got in it too and he was like, it's not half bad.

So I didn't drive the original version that came to market.

And there are things about the VINFAST, if you have high standards, they might not be met.

Like if you are only using Apple all the time and it's integrated into your life, if you
start using a different software, even though it does have Apple CarPlay and Android Auto,

like you can use those, but it is something that you kind of have to learn that's new, but
it

a car that at the very least gets me from point A to point B.

It doesn't have the best efficiency.

mean, it's a heavy car.

The build quality is Colton without a spec detailing is going to come out with a video
soon.

So personally, I'm not an expert, but I'm like, it's a beautiful car.

It's a beautiful green color.

The design is interesting.

I get stopped all the time.

Yeah.

wouldn't say I would call the design of it beautiful but I love the green color and
everything.

It is just different, it's unique and it's a crossover so it's like good or bad.

It's not like horrible but it's nothing like gonna stop you in your tracks when you see

it's got like ambient lighting inside the...

It's in pet mode and dog mode, which a lot of EVs don't have.

So it has some interesting things that are thrown in that are like, this is a nice
experience.

Like it drives pretty well.

the driver's assistant system is some of the best that I've ever driven in and...

I haven't driven it, but I've heard you say that, which is really one of those other
things that obviously software plays so much into that.

to hear your experience with it makes me want to drive it just to try

I would, I really, really like it.

It is just so easy.

It just drives itself.

Not really, not really, really, but it does like on the drive, on the highway and
everything.

It's a dream, it's really nice.

So there are things I really like about it.

And in that way, I'm not an expert car reviewer.

I wouldn't even call myself a car reviewer.

I am a student of the world and I have been driving a Subaru out back forever.

I get in this car and

very much decently pleased.

did start out, random errors would come up and glitches.

And of course you have to think about, I don't really have a service network nearby.

It's along like the smile coast.

And then there's one in Wichita, Kansas, which I did stop at to get a software update,
because that's what I had to do.

And that fixed a lot of that weird glitchy, quirky stuff that everyone was talking about
and added some cool features like you can see.

that EV information of how many kilowatts is incoming into your vehicle, not only at the
connector port, but also going into the battery.

So some nerdy details.

So I think basically what I'm seeing is that VinFast has potential to keep learning.

Yeah.

And they also have so much money as well.

Whereas maybe Fisker, they had a limited pocket.

Yeah.

Yeah.

ever get anyone on your podcast from them to talk about that, I'd be so envious.

actually, I don't want to say I called it, but I did actually have the opportunity to,
speak on a panel with Henry Fisker a few years ago and can I ask him some questions and

he, the, of the answers and the things he dodged, I was, this was for auto line and,

I didn't want to seem pessimistic, but there were, there were just some things I was
really skeptical of.

And so I'm sad.

I'm I'd have to watch that interview again, but I mean, still, this was still pretty early
and I don't know if this was, I think this still may have been before, cause remember.

that two years ago now that, the ocean wasn't out, but it was like kind of on there.

was soon to be on it was on the horizon, but then Fisker like announced

10 different, they're going to do an SUV, they're going to do a pickup truck, they're
going to do all of these things that it was just like all over the place.

And it was just like, okay, just get one vehicle out.

And, I just remember one, okay.

think one of the things that really stood out to me was I agreed and I thought their,
business model of leveraging using, magna to actually build the vehicles was really was a

fascinating idea.

And some of the panel being more from the Detroit automotive.

So I loved it from like the business and lowering the margins and getting to market fast,
which I was like, those are all good and valid points.

But I think coming from more of the startup side, I was like, well, if you're a new brand
or even dare I say, kind of like a known brand rebooted, you have to be so in control of

the messaging and your product and what the customer thinks of it.

And I think unfortunately, while it brings down the cost and does get the product out
there faster, it does really have a,

In a lot of ways, the product itself was built fine because magnet doesn't know how to
build great vehicles and stuff, but it was, there was just a big disconnect in the product

you're making for these early customers and to kind of get that feedback and have that
ability to prototype and make changes like Tesla, like Lucid, like, Rivian have with their

hardware because they also can then just go right to the line in the factory where this
thing is happening and change it overnight.

That is so true.

Yeah.

But, it's one of those things like, I was right, but I don't, I don't want to.

Glow too much bad.

Cause I would have liked, I want to see more succeed.

And I, a lot of ways, there were things I didn't like about it, but I thought the look of
it was a really popular look and it would do really well.

and in some ways it had a lot of interest in sales, but the price was just too high and
they ran to other issues.

But let's get back to a more fun vehicle.

Let's get back to the then fast.

So I think there's two things.

that, obviously the outer spec team is really big about.

so am I one of those being the fact that it has dog mode.

And that was something that it added.

And it's just like one of these things that we tend to be like, why don't more cars have
that?

Even my wife kind of says like, whatever car we get next, it has to have that.

It's like just a fun, like, think some of that may be generational and the experience with
software, but it is also from a hardware perspective with so many EVs so easy to

that it's just kind of disappointing to not see that more offered or putting that kind of
focus on experience for the EV product.

I agree.

Because when we think about the purpose of dog mode, I could be the dog that needs the dog
mode just sitting in my car, but I don't want necessarily everything on or I want to leave

like my groceries in the car even and keep them cool, but still be able to lock the car.

there you go.

and when I like a hot summer day, we'll put it in there in term dog mode just so it keeps
it from like getting too hot and stuff.

Yeah.

I mean, some people maybe couldn't care less, but I do think like when it comes to if
you're able to control your car from your phone and precondition the cabin or lock it,

unlock it, whatever it is, like adding that in is a huge selling point for people like me
and a lot of people online too, who have dogs, who travel with their dogs or have cases of

wine if they're lucky enough to keep cool in the back of their car.

And I think

gotta come out to Oregon.

We'll take you some of the great amazing wines we have in the valley.

We'll make it a business expense.

How about that?

awesome.

Yeah, that sounds great.

mean, little features like this are pretty important to folks.

And like that might keep someone from switching from a Tesla to something else because
they're like, well, I really like that feature, this feature, and things like that, I

think do become significant.

And from our point of view, we're like, well, automakers, why don't you put it in?

And then we hear reasoning from them.

And it does make me want to be a fly on the wall to see.

Why?

Why not?

But I guess there might be a good reason that they don't do that.

But I mean, that's a huge winner for me with the pet

No, for sure.

And so, I mean, we've talked probably a lot more.

I can definitely say this is the podcast we've talked the most about the Vinfast on, as a
brand as an EV, but I think it's just been so fascinating to see just, guess I'd mentioned

there are two points.

The second point is essentially the software and that customer focus that they have shown
to be kind of in a startup mode where they're still.

trying to deliver even if it's not over there is to fix a lot of these things to make a
better customer experience and what were you gonna say?

Well, they do have the goal of going over the air software update, which I'll say, you
know, and but they are basically what I when I asked the dealership where I got the

software update in Wichita, Kansas, they were like, well, you know, they don't want to
rush into it and then have something happen like automakers have had happen across the

across the board where an update comes out and they're like, whoopsie and Vinfast being so
fresh, having the reputation they have, I think they are cautious, rightfully so.

I think it's justified to do that kind of thing.

But also that is also a really lovely feature that I can just be sitting at home and my
car can get an update and I can have a better experience from there.

And it is just like with Fisker, we didn't want them to fail.

I don't want VinFast to fail necessarily, but I want a good product.

being able to give honest, big feedback and see them respond as a company, I think that's
key

succeeding for sure and not rushing as we've talked about just before a little bit.

The rush that I don't even think is necessarily from any mandates or anything like that,
but instead just like let's get an EV on the market instead of saying, this is new

technology that we really want to be intentional about and give the best experience and
consider all of the anxieties that the market has about electric vehicles and make a

fantastic product, especially when there's so many lessons learned from those who have

been in the market so far, feel like a patient approach in a way is great and hopefully
won't lead to sad stories.

For sure.

mean, this kind of goes to also what we were talking about yesterday about like that first
versus second mover approach.

And, I have been, I've been consistently impressed by how VinFast has approached some of
these things from how you've documented it.

But, it sounds like, and I guess this would be interesting is you took a road trip
recently in the VinFast and then in, switched out for something else.

So maybe you want to share that experience with us and kind of where you are today in your
EV ownership and day -to -day experience.

I just love learning and man, do I keep getting opportunities to do so.

So I spent the last month in Colorado.

So I lived in Colorado for 10 years.

I moved back to the Southeast because I just wanted to get closer to my roots and I drove
the VINFAST VF8 out there.

So in preparation, you know, I made a Google Sheet.

I looked on PlugShare.

I mapped out all of my stops.

I made sure that other folks said that they were working.

I had backup plans in case

you know, efficiency turned out weird or I had to stop in a different place.

So I put in the effort as I would like a camping trip, picking out my camping sites,
really making sure that they were great, looking at reviews.

And then I made my way out there and it took two days as it usually does.

I did have to stop in Wichita overnight and spend five hours getting that update.

And that's cool.

I got to see Wichita.

I'd never seen it before.

And I had again, you know, a CCS road trip.

experience with a car that doesn't charge super fast or super impressive.

well, you know, typically my stops are around 30 minutes.

I also like to get out and walk the dog.

And I got to experience that and go spend a month in Colorado.

And then the Out of Spec team wanted to that was a good experience.

I enjoyed the road trip.

Didn't really have any complaints that infrastructure worked along the way.

Like at every stop that I was at some, think maybe once or twice, I had to move stalls
along the way.

generally worked, loved the pet mode, got to spend way too much time in Walmarts and
Targets and lose some of the money I should have kept in my wallet.

But it was a good road trip.

I love a good road trip.

On my way back though, the Out of Spec team wanted to keep the Vinfast to spend time with
her for however long they're going to keep her until I get her back.

And I was given what is affectionately called Beak, the Tesla Model 3 that

Kyle's and Alyssa's that has 146 ,000 miles on it now.

So it's really the heavy odometer there in terms of all the EVs that we have, or the team
has.

And I got to drive that back the same, over a thousand mile trip.

I took the same route through Wichita, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and then into Tennessee.

And it

a different experience.

will say the things that I love about the VinFast, still love like the driver's assistant
system, the comfort of the car, and all the other things that I've mentioned before.

But it is so nice to put in your, I didn't even plan at all any of my stops coming back
with the Tesla.

I said, I'm going to just use 100 % the Tesla route planning and let it just guide my way.

I won't put any input.

And when I did, I ended up regretting it towards the end,

It was such a non mentally involved way of EV road tripping compared.

And someone equated it.

I think it was someone on one of the podcasts that wrote a road trip in a CCS vehicle.

No, a road trip into Tesla is like using a GPS.

It tells you exactly where to go.

A road trip in a CCS electric vehicle is like using an Atlas.

So you're going to get there.

You just might have to work a little bit harder using the map.

Yeah, maybe some detours.

And on the way back, mean, not only will Tesla tell you, you know, how where the
superchargers are, how long you're going to need to charge there based on all of the

information and the data that it has, but also you pull up, you back in, you you grab the
connector, you plug it in the car, you don't get into the app, you don't initiate a

charge, you don't tap your card.

And it always on this road trip started charging.

And that was so different where I didn't have to wait.

in the sun and the heat wave at the Electri America station on the asphalt parking lot,
like getting my phone out and then swiping it and plugging it in and then maybe doing it

again.

Like plug and charge is going to totally change the game when that finally gets
standardized and folks can just plug in and walk away knowing that their car is going to

charge.

And that kind of thing, it was as close to, I think, a internal combustion engine road
trip as it has gotten for me so far.

where you know that when you pull off, you're going to go to a gas station.

The Tesla's telling me exactly where to go to go to the supercharger.

And it just works every time.

So it was quite the difference.

Well, and I think it's like, it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier, like for a
new technology to take off, it doesn't have to be just as good.

has to be better.

And so when I've gone on a road trip with a, with a combustion vehicle, I've never really
had to worry about where I was going to pull over and get gas.

It happens, but you just kind of do it.

And there's been a lot of places where I'm driving through actually really remote places
of either Oregon, Nevada, Arizona.

And you'll see a sign like next gas, 150 miles, a hundred miles or something like that.

And then what's also been really funny on some of these trips in the middle of nowhere,
I've even seen DC fast chargers, which is kind of makes it seem like, okay, it's not as

much, flack as they get and like location.

There are some out there.

There are some really random place and I don't know if anyone's ever used them, but they
are there.

But what it, what it really goes to is like, when I go on a road trip and a combustion
vehicle, I don't know necessarily where I'm going to stop.

Maybe I'll think of like a place along the way.

want to get lunch or something,

The Tesla experience and Emily, they're not the only one, but the whole route planner, a
good route planner and EV figures out not only where you're going to stop and how long,

but it really does like take care of so much of this for you and with what you're saying,
kind like with the Tesla one, I recently was taking a road trip back over fourth of July

weekend.

try to avoid things like that, but it just happened to happen that way.

And so we were there a couple of the charges were getting pretty full.

And so it recommended going to another one or it started saying like,

I forget if there was, I took photos of there were things I hadn't seen before.

And obviously it's probably been there for a while, but it just like, starts giving you
tips and recommendations like, I want to go that next one or go to like a different one.

Like, and it shows you how many people are going there.

What's the weight.

And it's these things that I never would get information about a gas station about.

And I've been guilty of waiting at like a gas station because it's cheaper something, even
if there's a line in like the middle of summer.

And it is just one of these things, making that road trip experience across the board and
giving you so much more proactive data that you would never have with a combustion

vehicle.

I think really, hopefully more vehicles start doing it sooner than later.

And we're starting to see some promising things, but that just is part of what I think is
going to a lot of the legacy OEMs really need to think about to make that step even that

much easier, not just easier, but overall a better experience.

Totally.

I think you have a great point.

It's very proactive and it's making sure that you're getting the best experience and you
don't have to think about it.

And the trust that you can have in the software to do what is in best interest for you is
such an art that can't be undervalued.

And our team did do a race to Vegas for electric SUVs.

On the way there, they raced it.

But on the way back, the different, the R1S, the Mercedes EQS,

EV9 and there's another one.

Thank you.

They just followed the route planner on the way back.

So we got to see how these different automakers are doing their route planning.

And again, it's a pretty nascent thing, I guess, but it does show you how valuable it is,
especially when we value road trips as a society that, yeah, plan my route.

Think it through for me and let me show

at a low state of charge, get the charge I need to get as far as I can, and then end up at
another charger and carry on my way.

It really is very cool to see it.

I still will recommend road tripping in a CCS vehicle.

But yeah, Tesla does have something to really admire there.

for sure.

And I, I like to recommend other options, but I get asked every day, like is what what's
like the easiest EV and you ask a couple of questions.

It's like, if you just want the easy button solution, you don't want to think about and
you can charge it.

I'm just, you know, it's asked them be done with it.

Because then you start kind of going down these other paths that are totally doable.

But there's just a lot of people that just want kind of the easiest, simplest, not have to
think about.

And it's one thing if you're car enthusiasts, sure, there might be sportier ones

maybe more economical ones here and there in certain ways.

like, if you don't really care, you just, you just want to have an EV to have an EV and
make that transition easy.

I think there's still a strong position to just be the easy button.

And that's a shame because a lot of people don't want specifically a Tesla.

And so it's like, I wish there was a more easy list of options that were like, well,
you're going to get a very similar experience with the CV.

Not quite there yet.

starting to see some of them, but just at that price point that they're at, there really
isn't that competition like.

Rivian Porsche for sure.

But there's a pretty big Delta in those price points still.

but I guess one thing we've talked a lot about your EV experience and kind of how you've
worked in this industry for a few years.

And we even allude to this a little bit yesterday and I realized we've gone over time.

So this is the final question, but

do you think people either making regulations or really being in the automotive industry
and having influence on these electric vehicle topics or charging infrastructure?

Do they need to have an EV?

And as you mentioned, some of it is obviously a financial thing, like, automotive
journalists have gone so many, I think I'm so frustrated consistently how many things they

get wrong about EVs and they think they're, they know so much about them because they've
been writing about combustion vehicles for so long.

And I think.

whether it's maybe it should be subsidized or paid for to have charging at home by their
employer or even the lease or something.

But I am kind of in the camp that if you're in the industry, you kind of need to have one.

And I realize it can be expensive.

And there's maybe an argument to be made that some of these companies or even if it's like
a government thing, have a lease that they can give to different people just so they

experience this day to day.

And so I'm curious of your take on this question

Yeah, I definitely have a take on it and I will preface it with that.

I started the OuterSpec podcast and I worked at EVGO and I didn't have an EV.

I am a young single woman.

know, it is, it was harder for me to convince myself to to buy one when I really didn't
have the like the confidence that I would, this was the financial decision that was right

for me.

Nonetheless, I do think someone from that point of view can just report the facts, but

living with an EV and really like full time has definitely given me insight that I am so
like disappointed to say that executive teams at Chargepoint operators and at automakers

are not driving electric as their daily cars.

it is, it's, it doesn't, now, and if you look at the big thing and how we're maybe like
slow moving or there's these big mistakes that have happened and misunderstandings with

what

EV drivers need it makes sense because the people making the decisions and the regulation,
which you made a good point on that tweet that I said, like you have to be driving

electric or you don't know what's going on.

It's like kind of, you know, people coming in from other countries or whatever and going
into another place and trying to solve a problem with their background and their culture

and not understanding the place, even the problem that they're going to solve and
obviously bringing

not even a solution, an idea that doesn't understand the context in which the issue
exists.

So I think it is absolutely imperative that senior and executive level, as well as anyone
making any decisions about regulation or policy or infrastructure needs to be driving

electric and needs to go on electric road trips and needs to drive a Tesla and needs to
drive CCS vehicles.

And I do understand some companies are smaller or like journalists

organizations don't have access to all the cars, well, everyone should have the chance.

mean, at EVgo, they made sure that even as a remote team, everyone went to a charger at
least once, but that's not even probably enough.

like you need to be at chargers all the time.

You need to be experiencing this or else you don't really know.

And if you're going to make a successful business model, think obviously, right, you got
to do it.

You agree?

you know, I completely agree.

I think the one, cause you're totally right.

There is still a financial burden, but one of the things I was pushed back, like you were
even talking about the price of the Vinfast and I wouldn't say by any means that's cheap,

but the average sales price of a new car is $47 ,000.

It doesn't matter if that's electric or combustion.

It's $47 ,000, which I'll be the first to say, I think that's too much.

But when you put into comparison, especially where electric vehicle prices are right now,
it's kind of on the

It is.

Yeah.

And it, there's a lot of different reasons, whether it being the inability to charge at
home, the financial.

And I do think at the very least, I think you do bring up great point of having both the
CCS and the Tesla experience.

That at the very least as part of onboarding or as part of like working on a panel, if
you're in regulation or a government thing, you should be at at the part of the, there

should be one week where you have a rental, a Turo or wherever where

they rent you paid by either the government entity or the, the business, cause it's really
not that expensive and it's something you can, they can expense anyway of.

Brenda Evie as part of your rent, a test as you're on board for one week.

And then next week is a CCS and just so you can live with it and see the pros and cons of
both those.

And even if you have to plug into a one 20 at home, it's still for most people, you can
get by with

And at least gets you thinking about it and understanding what that experience is.

Yeah, that's what I do too is just the trickle charge and it's, it's, you know, maybe
takes two days to get like the fullest charge that you could want, but it's, fine.

Yeah.

I think I, totally agree.

There is no excuse.

You have the money to pay for it somewhere.

I'm sure you could rearrange things and have a really, and I've seen teams that have done
it.

I've seen a team of like four, four men that worked at this company getting a pole star.

two, which is one of the smallest like EVs and they went on a road trip up and down the
coast of California with their colleagues to experience the different networks and it

wasn't even the, you know, the car that they make.

So I thought that was a really great point of view and they kind of had the software
background.

So perhaps they were thinking as software engineers typically do, like you have to use the
software so that you understand where the bugs are and everything so that you can build it

correctly.

And I love that point of view.

And

anyone can object to that.

really, would love to hear their point of view if they don't think people need this
because I don't understand.

And I think if you're going to meet people where they are, you, as these higher ups who
are making these decisions, you have to, you have to understand it.

And it is honestly really fun.

Even if you don't want to drive a Tesla, like you need to experience it.

You have to know what else is out there and have the full picture or else I don't think
you're going to really make anything good out of it or have

the best ideas of how to make the electric revolution happen, whatever it might

Yeah.

And I mean, whether wherever you think of Tesla, wherever on the spectrum, it just like,
it still is kind of, it just sets the bar across all of the experience from the ownership

to the driving to the charging.

And it's funny.

You mentioned the pole star because like, these are the things that we take for granted or
just don't even think about like a pole star.

When you're going on road trip and you get down to a few percent, it's a much different
experience than other cars or like a Tesla where it's like, you can pretty much drive it

down to zero.

Obviously not ideal, but you can get there and there's

pull star and some other cars, you start getting down to a few percent.

Like the battery starts cutting the power pretty significantly.

And it's like, it becomes a very actually kind of sketchy driving experience.

And these are all just different things, especially if you're in the industry or designing
an EV that you just would not expect, or maybe necessarily know if you haven't gone behind

the seat, gun behind the wheel and actually gone for a ride.

And that's just one of the things that kind of pops into my mind that people just would
not expect.

Yeah, and yeah, even you might not even know what a charge curve really might look like,
or a derated charger, what that experience is like, or yeah, pulling up to these charging

stations.

I think it's it's definitely something that needs to be lived, and it reminds me a little
bit briefly when the energy secretary took an EV road trip.

It was in twenty twenty three from Charlotte to Memphis, Charlotte, North Carolina to
Memphis, Tennessee, and.

my gosh, was that just, it just wasn't executed properly.

You know, they just didn't go about it.

Yeah, but I've always wanted to recreate that since I'm over here.

So maybe one day I will and I'll show, okay, it's not that horrible.

Yeah.

was just the issues they ran into.

then that like the idea of like reserving a spot ahead by having someone park there was
like an interesting idea and made sense.

But then obviously it's like annoying all these other EV drivers there that are trying to
charge this and just had so many unintended, backlashes for if anyone's not familiar with

what happened with it, but, Francie, I've really enjoyed this conversation really enjoyed
yesterday.

I realize we've gone way over time.

can easily keep talking on a lot of these topics If anyone's listening, what's the best
way to get a whole I mean we'll have a lot of the links in the show notes but anything in

particular to reach out and kind of connect with you best and learn more about the podcast

totally.

can follow me on Twitter, hey underscore francy, F -R -A -N -C -I -E.

And of course you can find me and listen to me talk way too much over on the Out of Spec
podcast, but I do always try to bring something of value to either spark a new idea or

just energize you with new electric news.

So feel free to hang out with me over there.

But yeah, thank you so much, Chase, for having me onto the podcast.

It's great to like really actually get to know you.

kind of in real life in a way and share in these discussions because I think you have an
amazing background and experience and you're constantly like thinking about these

questions and the progress that we are making or aren't making and how and it's really
great to speak with you.

So I really enjoyed this.

Thank you for having me on Grid Connections.

I appreciate

pleasure.

And we will for sure have to have you again on soon.

So thank you so much, Francie and looking forward to the next one.

Thanks, thank you so much.

Bye everyone.

Thank you for tuning into this episode of the grid connections podcast.

hope you enjoyed our conversation with Francie Saunders from the Out of Spec podcast.

Francie's experience and insights in the world of electric vehicles, especially her
journey with the VINFAST VF8 have been not only just enlightening, but always inspiring

for others trying to make it into the world of new electric vehicles and taking them on
road trips.

If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with at least one other listener who would
appreciate Francie's story.

We also love to hear your thoughts.

So don't forget to leave a positive view on our podcast page.

Your feedback helps us continue bringing you insightful and engaging content until next
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This is the great connections podcast signing off.