morning Grid Connections listeners.

Today we're thrilled to have Eric Way, the
host of the News Coulomb YouTube channel.

I originally met Eric by being a guest on
Plug and Play TV's live show discussing EV

road tripping.

Eric brings a wealth of experience from
his background of living in Northern

California with a Chevy Bolt.

In this episode, we dive into the various
EV road trip tactics, discuss the rollout

of EV charging infrastructure,

and share our visions for the future of
EVs and EV charging road trips.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share
it with at least one other person you

think would love it too.

And don't forget to leave a positive
review on our podcast page as well,

please.

Your support helps us bring more exciting
content to you.

With that, enjoy.

you, Chase.

Yeah, I have a YouTube channel news
Coulomb pun intended You know I started a

little over seven years ago now when I
when I got my bolt TV just sort of as a

means of sort of communicating my
experiences as I got that car and You

know, and it's just sort of grown from
there.

So yeah, we just just knew news Coulomb

on YouTube and that's pretty much it.

So what made you choose originally the
Bolt EV or what made you kind of take the

plunge into going with an electric
vehicle?

Well, I mean, I'd been driving plugins
for, well, it's going on 12 years now.

So the Chevy Volt is what I ended up
getting, 2011 Chevy Volt.

And I think I actually didn't get it until
almost 2012.

But I had been interested in electric
vehicles for a long time.

It's kind of the story you hear too about
like remote control car, RC car.

I always had those as kid, and I was
playing with, always fiddling with the

battery and the motors.

So I was always interested and throughout
the early 2000s, I was tracking the

industry just as a sort of fan, watching
what proceeded with the GM EV1, the Ranger

EV, which I actually own two of now that
I'm restoring, was actually the EV I

always wanted.

When it came out, it was what, $50 ,000,
$55 ,000?

My little head at the time exploded with
the thought of how expensive that was.

So yeah, just basically, and then early
2000s, I was even planning out some sort

of a conversion, DIY conversion, but
that's the dark ages of EV conversions

when people were using forklift motors and
12 volt car batteries.

to put together something that had about
30 miles of range, if you were lucky.

And just budget, time constraints, all of
that never worked out.

And I considered the Nissan Leaf when it
first came out too.

And I just realized with its range, I was
gonna need two cars.

There's just no way possible.

So I eventually ended up getting the Chevy
Volt.

And it was maybe the first Chevy that I
had.

purchased myself in one of the only Chevys
my family had ever owned.

And I was kind of won over by the tech,
right?

I was won over by how well they integrated
the electric motors.

As a lot of Volt owners will tell you, the
weakest part of the Chevy Volt is the gas

engine, right?

I mean, everything else about that car is
great.

And so when...

you know, I found out that GM was building
the Chevy Bolt EV.

I was kind of sold on it already, but I
knew I was getting an EV and at that point

in time, it was either the Tesla Model
S60D or the Bolt EV.

And it basically made the agreement with
myself, whichever, you know, if they were

able to deliver the Bolt EV by the end of
2016,

I was going to go that direction because
it's literally half the cost.

I was budget and value minded at the time
and I took the plunge and I went with it.

From that point forward, it was just
wanting to share my experiences because I

had a unique use case.

That was that I was putting on some days
150 to 200 miles a day.

I didn't have charging at home for a lot
of the time, so it was either work

charging or public charging.

So there were really limited options for
me and you know, I needed something.

Then of course every couple of weeks I'd
go on a thousand, fifteen hundred mile

weekend trip.

And so I needed something that was capable
of doing all of that long range driving.

And you know, it needed to be technology
that I trusted.

Like I said, GM had already kind of proven
themselves to me with the Volt.

So that's kind of where I got where I was
going.

But yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Did that answer your question?

That's kind of how I ended up in the car.

kind of jump off point.

I'm curious with when you say you're
driving a couple hundred miles a day and

then maybe you're doing these longer road
trips on the weekends.

Was that with the idea you'd have the Bolt
as a daily driver and then you were still

keeping the Chevy Volt for those longer
drives or a second car?

Or were you planning at that time to do it
all in the Bolt as your main car for it?

That was the other thing is it needed to
be my only car and so I still own like so

somewhere along the line I was putting on
those miles even even when I first got my

my Chevy Volt so maybe a sub chapter to
the backstory is I did eventually trade in

my 2011 volt for a 2015 volt a little bit
better battery capacity a little bit more

features and functionality, but it was
mostly actually the internet

the OnStar, the 4G LTE internet, because
where I am currently, right, I'm speaking

to you through Starlink, because there
just aren't any ISPs where I am in

Northern California, where my family and
my property is.

So I needed something that also had an
internet.

That's why I went with the 2015 Volt, sort
of traded it in.

But when I got my Bolt EV,

I had made a deal with my family that I
took their C -Max.

I said, you're done with this.

You're taking my Volt and I'm going and
I'm trading the C -Max in.

And then that way they got high speed
internet up here and they had a plug -in

hybrid, not just a hybrid.

And then I got the Volt EV.

So the Volt EV needed to do all of that
driving on its own.

That's why I said early on in my video
channel is it's the no training wheels EV,

right?

You don't have a backup.

You don't have a gas generator on board.

There's no training wheels.

You're fully committed now.

So.

Yeah, I think that's an interesting way to
put it, especially with kind of the

charging infrastructure at that time when
you purchased it.

But I know that's something we'll probably
be talking more about.

So I want to, I'm kind of curious.

I didn't really fully appreciate how long
you'd been driving the Chevy Volt and just

thinking of kind of the current news and
what we've been hearing from General

Motors.

They're still obviously pushing electric
vehicles and they're finally delivering

some more now, but there's clearly been a
pushback from some of the traditional

legacy auto OEMs here domestically about.

kind of the more temperate approach and
doing plugin hybrids.

And I'm, I'm kind of curious on your
thoughts of the plugin hybrid versus Evie

fully Evie debate and where you think kind
of looking at the market nowadays, what it

makes the most sense.

Well, if you brought me on here for hot
takes, you'll get one.

Honestly, I really don't see a place for
plug -in hybrids.

Not anymore.

You could maybe make an argument 12 years
ago that plug -in hybrids were a valid

option.

But at this point in time, I see them as
essentially a complete waste.

You're...

You're not any plug -in hybrid that you
have You're going to drive and you're

going to realize how much better that car
would be if it were just all -electric And

that's what you see here here all the time
from Chevy Volt owners from BMW i3 owners

if only I had double the battery capacity
if only I had

a hundred miles of EV range or only I had
a hundred and fifty miles of EV range,

then I'd never need to use the gas engine
except in emergencies.

Well, that's kind of what the public
charging infrastructure is there for

anyway.

So at this point in time, it just it's a
waste for me, in my opinion, to go down

that road of adding an internal combustion
engine, adding all of the equipment that

goes with it, wasting all the space, all
the complexity, all the cost.

when you're literally replacing that with
a similar cost in batteries and doubling

or tripling or quadrupling the range, the
power, the capability of the car.

So to me, there might be a couple of valid
use cases for plug -in hybrids and it's

almost all going to be commercial or heavy
duty vehicles.

And really I see even that as a cop out
because to me,

The use cases for someone who really would
want to plug in hybrid, you're either

better off getting an all electric that's
more capable on the EV side, or if that's

not good enough for you, and there is a
small percentage of the population where I

do agree that that's still true, you
should just get a hybrid instead.

A mild hybrid because most of your gains
are going to be from stopping the internal

combustion engine when you come to a
stoplight,

doing low speed EV driving, maybe a mile
or two at a time.

And then once you get up to speed, you're
running off the gas engine.

And at least that way you're saving all of
those batteries for more capable EVs.

You're saving yourself cost and
complexity.

But you're getting all the benefits of a
hybrid essentially.

For sure.

And I actually agree with you.

And I, obviously, I think where I'm at
here and been, there's a decent amount of

electric vehicles and plug -in hybrids,
but the incident you go east of here or

like northeast of here, it is literally a
desert charging and weather or climate

wise.

And so I do understand why some people
kind of make that choice.

And if they are.

kind of skeptical or hasn't to go fully
EV, but you're totally right when it just

seems like the people that do that within
a few months are like, yeah, if only this

thing had twice the battery range or they
start doing all the things anyway, that

it's your, you're close enough and,
between the maintenance and other kinds of

points of failures, it does seem to make
sense to just go to a fully electric

system.

One.

I was just going to close by saying, you
know, as an experienced volt owner, I can

tell you for a fact that gas anxiety is a
real thing.

There were trips that I literally didn't
take that I could have because it would

have been burning gas.

And I just didn't I just didn't want to be
burning the gas at the time.

So it's like, well, I could go on this
200, 300 mile weekend excursion.

I'd be burning gas.

I just don't want to do it.

I don't feel like using the money or
wasting the time or what you're using the

fuel.

So there is a gas anxiety component to it
because you get addicted to the EV side of

it.

Just knowing that it's completely
replenishable, completely renewable.

Yeah, you just don't want to burn gas.

Yeah, that's kind of funny.

And that, that does make sense with when
you look at even going back further than

that with kind of the original Prius is
and people who are kind of doing the

hypermiling and trying to minimize how
much gas they were burning and even trying

to convert those to plug in hybrid.

So I think all of that does make a lot of
sense with that.

you look at the Chevrolet bolt being
discontinued now, and there's obviously

pros and cons to that, but what do you
think?

for kind of the secondary market for used
cars because it seems like even brand new,

they were pretty cheap.

Plus now you can qualify for the $4 ,000.

I'm not sure if it's a tax credit or how
the $4 ,000 used car government rebate

works, but in that whole space, what do
you think if you were to get a used EV,

would you go with a Bolt or would you look
at something else just kind of given where

prices have

dropped down for a lot of other used EVs.

Well, I don't know that I would be in the
market for a used EV, right?

I think I would actually prefer to go the
route of a new EV, and I think a lot of

that does have to do with the $7 ,500
incentive, right?

So yeah, there is the possibility of going
cheap, but I also don't know that I would

go with a bolt EV, just assuming that I
would give up my car, then maybe, but...

I wouldn't be replacing my Bolt EV.

Right now on the chopping block first is
the Volt.

So if we want to go from that example, if
I were going to replace my Volt with a

cheap EV or a used EV, it probably
actually, believe it or not, might be

something like the Nissan Leaf, right?

It's something where I think it's actually
more capable than people give it credit

for.

And it's even cheaper than the Bolt EV.

And as long as you go into it with the
understanding that you're probably not

going to be taking long trips with it, it
really is for your local runabout.

That and, you know, Nissan's credit, they
do great interiors, comfortable car.

But yeah, I haven't really given, to be
perfectly honest, I haven't given much

thought to the used market because, you
know, obviously you could go the direction

of a Tesla Model 3.

I don't know that I would go that
direction.

One of the things that maybe I would have
mentioned is that where I live, ground

clearance is a real thing.

And so lower sedans is something that I
probably wouldn't want to go with.

Maybe a used model Y would be more
appropriate in that direction, but it

would definitely be leaning more toward
the crossover side rather than the...

in the sedan or the smaller car, like an
IONIQ, original IONIQ, not the IONIQ 5.

I wouldn't go with that either just
because of the size of the car and the

ground clearance.

So.

For sure.

And that's interesting because that's
actually a big part of the reason I chose

our model Y.

among other reasons, just kind of, we do a
lot of hiking and just kind of going on.

I wouldn't by any means call them off road
trails when we've taken that thing.

but yeah, easily dirt roads, sometimes
washed out.

I mean, we did technically drive it over a
washed out bridge.

but yeah, by no means is it like your
traditional off -roader, compared to like

a Jeep or something like that.

Well, and I did run into that same issue
with the Volt.

It's another reason that I'm...

that's gonna be the next car that I get
rid of is the Volt is because that low

sedan, I was just running into problems
with it, so...

Now, that is interesting.

So we've talked about obviously the kind
of why you chose the bolt and the volt and

doing these road trips and kind of being
in remote areas.

And I think that's something both you and
I have definitely had some experience

with.

Now, I think one area where we may have
different opinions on is.

around DC fast charging and that kind of
experience.

Cause I mean, for me, that was one of the
big reasons automatically the bolt was

never going to be on my list.

is just like for doing long distance road
trips or just kind of doing like a splash

and dash thing to get to where I need to
be.

The 50 kilowatt, charging was definitely
not just between the infrastructure, but

also, the availability on the time it
would take for that kind of charging.

Right.

Well, and I think so I went into it
partially with the understanding that

charging was going to take a little bit
longer.

And like I said, part of that came from my
experience with the Volt is I did some

back of the napkin math and basically
figured that I would be looking at similar

efficiencies in the Volt EV as what I was
seeing in the Volt and they weren't too

far off.

So.

And then again, like you had mentioned,
even though we didn't know at the time

that I got the Bolt EV, what its charging
rate was, we just knew that a majority of

the public charging infrastructure was 50
kilowatt.

And so at that point, it really becomes
sort of basic math, right?

You look at the i3 or the LEAF that were
out already, and you get to look at their

charging rate and say, okay, well, and
just shorthand in case you're ever

curious,

the 50 kilowatt chargers will add 23 .5
kilowatt hours.

If you're maxing them out, they'll add 23
.5 kilowatt hours in a 30 minute session.

So just doing that math, you can figure
how long it's gonna take you.

And most of my trips were never more than
about 500 to 600 miles in a day.

So I kind of was able to do those numbers
in my head and I knew that...

going from the Volt to the Volt EV, I was
going to be adding about an hour to an

hour and a half to those longer trips.

And part of that is I would never go on a
10 hour drive without stopping for a meal

at least and stopping at least one or two
times to use the bathroom.

So when I would do those trips in the
Volt, it was typically two bathroom

breaks, two discrete bathroom breaks.

and then one fuel stop slash meal stop.

That was about 45 minutes.

So you add all of that together, it's
taking me about an hour or so to make a 10

hour drive basically.

With the Bolt EV, I need to add another 30
to 45 minutes to that, sometimes an hour.

So that was a concession that I knew going
into it.

And unfortunately as faster chargers
became available, which we kind of

expected, it turned out the Bolt EV was
faster than the 50 kilowatt, but not fast

enough, faster to make a huge difference,
right?

So instead of two hours of charging to
make a 500 mile trip, now you're doing an

hour and a half of charging to make a 500
mile trip.

So it's still losing time to your point.

But I do think that the Bolt EV in my mind
is sort of that bare minimum bar.

Because as bad as we can say now in
today's framing the Bolt EV is, it's far

from the slowest charging EVs available on
the market when you look at things like

the Nissan Leaf, for example, or even the
BZ4X.

We have vehicles even now.

that aren't necessarily faster than the
Bolt EV in terms of charging, and I do

think that they fall below the minimum
bar, which to me has always been about a

three to one ratio.

If you can do three hours of driving for
every hour that you take off, you're okay,

I think.

Anything less than that and you really do
start to run into issues.

So, like I said, out of a...

10 hour trip if you have to stop for three
hours, that's pushing it, right?

If you only have to stop for about two to
two and a half hours, you may be okay.

But I think even that standard has
changed, right?

Just with recent EV developments, so.

Yeah, and I'm kind of curious what you
would think.

I think what you're saying totally makes
sense.

And I know plenty of people.

And in some ways, I think if level two
charging was even more prevalent, it

wouldn't be such an issue.

But what do you think in a like, look,
like, let's say, instead of buying the

bolt back in 2016, this was today.

And you were kind of in the same position
of going from a plugin hybrid to an EV.

What would you say is kind of the
acceptable road tripping, charging time

and speed ideally?

Cause I know we probably disagree on this
and I, I don't, I totally understand how

it works and how some people had it.

And I've done road trips when it's my wife
and I with the dogs.

and it's not as big of an issue because
they need to have breaks and stuff.

But even then, like still to this day, my
bare minimum like speed has to be, and

like even then when I've done some of
these longer road trips around like 800 to

a thousand miles, I even think a Model Y
is like too slow.

See, and that's interesting to me because
I did at least have a chance to review the

Kia EV6.

And in my experience, and I mean maybe
part of that is framing coming from the

Bolt EV, but in my experience that was too
fast.

And so when I say that...

You know, I did the thousand kilometer
challenge, the Bjorn Neeland, just to kind

of run it through the chops, see if I ran
into any issues with the EV6.

And I spent a grand total, I think, of 45
minutes charging.

So, and part of that, the trip took
longer, mostly because of traffic, but I

was still able to average, I think, about
70 miles an hour driving speed.

So I wasn't...

dilly -dallying, right?

So 70 miles an hour, and I think I spent a
total of 45 minutes charging, and I only

got to use a 350 kilowatt charger one
time.

So basically, had I been able to access a
350 kilowatt charger at each and every one

of those stops, it would have been 35
minutes of total time stopped out of like

10 hours of driving.

To me,

That's way outside the realm of reason
because I literally had to rush back from

a pickup order place to get back to my car
because I was already at like 85 %

battery.

And I'm like, I can't just sit around.

I barely even got my food.

I was barely able to use, one time I
literally had to leave without having used

the bathroom.

because the car was done charging before I
could get past the line to get into the

bathroom.

So at that point, it makes for an
uncomfortable trip, right?

When your car is outpacing you and you
feel this obligation to leave before it's

done charging, to me, that's excessive.

But to your point, some people might feel
like that's exactly what they want.

They want a...

10 minute, no more stop and be able to get
back on the road again for two to three

hours of driving.

And to me, I think that's pushing the
envelope of what's necessary, though it

does satisfy a need.

For me personally, I actually think that
sort of 2C charging rate that we're seeing

right now is about right.

The class of EVs that can go from zero
-ish

0 % to 80 % in about 30 minutes.

To me right now, that's the kind of
Goldilocks zone.

Because we have a bunch of EVs that are
like 45 minutes to an hour to charge to

80%.

And we have a bunch of EVs right now that
are 15 to 20 minutes to charge to 80%.

I think that 30 to 35 minutes to go from 0
% to 80 % is about that Goldilocks zone

that I personally would prefer.

but I recognize that it also might not be
fast enough for some people.

I totally get that perspective of road
tripping.

And I know plenty of people like that.

But I always just like, I would rather
have the car ready for me before I am.

And I think in some ways, that's also why
more level two is good.

Because if you know you're going to be
somewhere for a while or something, then

yeah, you can just kind of plug it into
that.

And.

If anything, I sometimes like to even see
a higher amperage level too.

But, and like I said, if it's just myself,
that, excuse me, that's when I by far

known or like noticed like, okay, I'm
waiting.

And that does, and I kind of go back and
forth.

Like if you're only going a few hundred
miles, yeah, maybe you only have to charge

once or twice and both should be pretty
quick ones.

Especially where you're going has charging
and you can just plug it in overnight.

But yeah, it's like, once you start
getting into like the 800 to 1000 plus

mile day trips, that's where it's like by
the end of the day, you're like, okay, I'm

tired of like, having to, I try to do like
just, more frequent stops, but shorter,

like just use the bathroom break, go in.

and from here to Phoenix.

from Bend Oregon to Phoenix, I think I did
it in...

I want to say eight, but I'm pretty sure
it was nine stops.

I think the reason I say eight, because
one of those was like, I just had to go to

the bathroom again.

I'd probably had too much coffee by that
point, but each of those were like

literally try and get the battery as low
as possible, plug it in to get that max

charge, run in, get a coffee or water, use
the bathroom and then try and be on the

road for at least another.

I think that's where I've struggled is
like, it's usually at that point, even for

like a 10 to 15 minutes stop, it's like.

year on the road for probably an hour and
a half to hour 45.

And I think it would just be nicer to see
like more of those charging cars in that

higher peak rate or at least hold the
curve longer.

So you're in the car for two to two and a
half hours per charge.

Right, and that's where I kind of see like
maybe there's a difference in personal

philosophy or whatever because to me,
rather than making a 15 minute, two 15

minute or two 10 minute stops and driving
for three hours to four hours, I would

rather make one 30 minute stop and then
drive for three hours.

And that's where I think the designs of
the EVs kind of are...

are diverging, I would say, because we
really do have two different strategies

that we're seeing at in play right now,
where you have sort of the Tesla Lucid

model, where it's a super high peak and
then a very rapid taper.

So you're really incentivized to leave
that charger no more than 50%, maybe 60 %

battery.

That adds the number of stops that you
have to make, but it reduces the amount of

time spent charging.

Whereas the other philosophy that we're
seeing is sort of the EGMP philosophy or

the we're seeing it from Porsche and at a
slightly lower rate but a similar

breakdown would be someone like GM with
their Ultium where it's not quite the same

high average power that you're seeing from
Porsche and Hyundai and Kia but it's the

same sort of the charging profile design
philosophy, right?

Where you're...

You're charging at a higher rate for
longer, so you're incentivized to stay

longer.

But then when you get on the road, you're
on the road for longer, so you make fewer

stops.

So I feel like as long as people are kind
of like, that's the barrier, right?

If we're promoting EVs that we need to get
to people who are considering an EV is

what is your travel philosophy and which
car works the best for that?

Right.

Because yeah, the splash and dash is fine
for probably three or four automakers at

most.

And then the rest of them, you're going to
be wanting to stop for 30 minutes to 40

minutes, but you're going to be on the
road for longer periods of time between

stops.

So I think that's the difference that I
see.

Yeah.

like I said, when it's not me and it's
like, I'm with my wife and dogs, it's

better.

and we usually stay a little bit longer at
spots, but, yeah, right now I'm all about

the Porsche charge profile.

Unfortunately, the Porsche price comes
along with that, but that has kind of been

one of the areas where I've been, like I
think that's also been a.

Part of the reason I've been pretty
disappointed with both Ford and GM's

offerings because the charge rate kind of
like looking at a C level, it just hasn't

been that strong.

and I guess I think it actually even add
Rivian to that.

and the reason I look at those is like,
sure.

Let's use GM share the Silverado and the
Hummer EV, like do like three 80, but when

you have a pack that's like 200, it's
like, yeah, I want to be doing 600 or

something like that.

and there's an argument that's a whole
different thing.

And there's an argument to be made like,
okay, are you even saving money or are you

even spending more than you would be in
diesel or something at that point?

That's a whole nother kind of conundrum,
but like even, like with the Rivian, which

is also obviously a much more expensive
product.

but even like the four lightning, they
both are vehicles with really large

batteries and,

even though the Ford holds it, it just
seems like it should be able to hold at

least closer to 200 longer.

Just because it's also just kind of shown
to be a great vehicle, but not really the

best road tripper if you have to stop more
than once.

Yeah, I mean, and I'm probably going to
offend some lightning owners when I say

this, but I'm sure you probably saw that
race down, was it I -95, I think it was,

with the two lightnings, one using the
supercharger, one using Electrify America

with Tom Malogny.

They made that trip in about the same
amount of time that it would have taken me

in my Bolt EV.

So...

You know, not to offend some lightning
owners out there, but it's just a matter

of efficiency relative to your charging
speed, right?

But I was going to say too, that's why
part of, I think, the deviation in the

different philosophies about travel and
charging speed also come from looking at

peak versus looking at average, right?

So if you actually break down that
average,

You could use the GMC Hummer EV or the
Silverado EV as an example.

So 200 kilowatt hour pack.

But if you look at their average charging
rate to 80%, they're averaging about 250

kilowatt.

So that's more than 50 % faster than what
the Cybertruck is averaging to 80%.

Now you could say, well, the battery is
almost 100 % bigger.

Right.

deviation in the averages actually aren't
that big, right?

You're looking at maybe a 10 to 15 %
advantage in charging speed based on a C

rate for the Cybertruck.

But that's when you look at average.

But if you look at peak, you say, well,
123 kilowatt hour pack, peaking at 330,

that's impressive.

So that's why I said, but it's how much
you hold it.

And...

sure.

point, if you're driving a Tesla and you
don't charge past 50%, your average

charging rate is over 200 kilowatt.

Now all of a sudden, the difference is
much smaller and it's like, well, now

you're leaning into, I think, the
strengths of the car.

And the concern that I have though is how
many average consumers want to do that

versus do what they want to do or make the
car do what they want to do.

And so that's...

That's I think the real issue with EV
adoption right now is one, there's sort of

ignorance about how each different
platform functions.

And then there are sort of invalid
expectations because of that ignorance.

And you see it all the time from
journalists who slam EVs because they,

yeah, they get into a Rivian or a
Lightning and they're like, I'm gonna

drive like a gas powered F -150.

No, you're not.

but you went in with that expectation, so
anything shorter than that is gonna seem

like a failure.

And, you know.

continuously disappointed with the vast
majority of automotive journalism just

because it's still so common to see
someone use kilowatt hour when they meant

kilowatt and vice versa.

And it doesn't seem like it's a big thing,
or I don't know if they just don't care

that much about electric vehicles, but
it's like, it to me is just kind of.

at best sad and at worst kind of like
against what their journalistic integrity

should be to like know what their job is
and realize that it's a different car and

it's a different beast altogether.

And kind of having it's one thing to know
about the overhead cams on a V12 and

that's great and all on a multimillion
dollar car, but you should also be just as

into it for the IONIQ five or something
that has a, and I totally agree with you

on the peak versus.

cause I totally agree.

I would settle for a lower peak rate if it
held it longer.

but the same, right.

But it was.

flat to 85 % is like, done.

problem then is, I think if you're going
to do that, you have to be a really

efficient vehicle.

That was the e -tron's kind of failure was
it just, unfortunately, wasn't efficient.

So you kind of, yes, I do.

I guess that's where I'm kind of like, I
feel like we just haven't seen, we've seen

new entrants, but we haven't really seen
new.

I feel like for a long time there, there
was pretty big improvements like every

other year.

And now I kind of feel like it has
stagnated a little bit.

And the most recent vehicles that I've
been like, okay, that's cool.

Are the Porsches, but obviously that comes
at a pretty big price.

And at the same time, they're not making
their own batteries.

They're getting them from a supplier.

And even the Porsche engineers admit that
they're pushing it, but they're keeping it

within what the specifics of the cells
are.

And so outside of better thermal
regulation, I don't understand why we're

not seeing that from more vehicle makers
or more competitive.

I think there's been some with the high
end IKEA group, but my pushback there is.

And hopefully this is changing.

I think this may have changed with some of
the newer vehicles is just some of the

issues that they've had in cold weather.

And also just it still isn't terribly
consistent to find.

Well, obviously, because of their voltage
structure, that also has a lot of

interoperability issues with finding the
right chargers that can max that out.

Well, but I mean, I would say that that's
not as big of an issue in North America

because Tesla is really the holdout in
terms of 800 volt.

Because within the North American charging
infrastructure anyway, if it's faster than

100 kilowatt, it's 800 volt.

So that's one of those benefits that
the...

that the EGMP vehicles do, they do benefit
from that.

So.

I see I'd push back on that actually,
because part of the issue, I don't run,

I'm all for 800 volt architecture.

And obviously that's what like the Tycon
has.

And then the Macan is really bizarre
because it's technically like 600 volt,

but since it's more than 400, they just
called 800.

The difference is, is the actual charging
infrastructure.

So many of them are actually, cause it's
based on electrical equipment.

That's why we have 400 volt.

That's why we have 800 volt.

It's based on traditional electrical
infrastructure.

And then the systems have kind of been
more or less backwards designed to meet

those kind of supply chains.

And that I think actually is one of the
big reasons Lucid's had so many issues is

they decide they kind of did the right
thing, but they decide to go with this

really high voltage, very specific, pretty
rare supply chain and like, EV support

infrastructure and charging infrastructure
that can support that.

And while I think obviously a higher
voltage and like 800 volt.

whatever you want to call it, design is
going to be the future.

Still so many of the charging
infrastructure we have is based on more or

less a 400 volt technology.

There's some of the ones that EA and
others have brought that are higher

voltage and offer that.

And to some extent, that's part of the
reason we've seen some of them have issues

is just around not having the right
course.

Like, I mean.

That's changing a little bit, but that's
obviously where you kind of got the thing

called the signet surge and all these kind
of fun issues that some of these higher

voltage charges were just running into not
being able to kind of continuously support

those.

And I think that is a growing pain and
will change longer term.

But in the short term, like I kind of it's
unfortunate, but I understand why like

Mercedes and so many of these other EV
makers stayed with 400 volt.

Not only is there the supply chain for it,
but I think traditionally there's just

been a much more consistent charging
experience in much more different

inclement weathers than if you go with
like the full 800 volt and you have to BC

charge regularly.

Well, and see, that's why I said I would
say, based on my experience, that the

current is the bigger issue than the
voltage.

And this is something that I'm currently
investigating right now because my Bolt EV

isn't letting me do it directly.

But it appears that EVgo does have an
issue with their Delta chargers, where

they are not combining power the way that
they're supposed to.

And so they're offering 500 amps no
problem, but they're not bridging so when

you come in with a GMC Hummer EV you come
in with a Chevy Silverado EV and you

expect three 500 amps at 700 volts.

It's not bridging It's just giving you 500
amps.

So at that point in time, you're basically
charging at Rivian speeds, right?

You're charging at the 500 amp

400 volt architecture speeds.

And that's not how those chargers are
designed to work.

And now I don't know if you've heard the
same thing, but I was chatting with a

certified technician for Electrify
America.

And he was telling me that that signet
surge is a completely different issue.

It has nothing to do with the 800 volt.

It has to do with the fact that their
power modules are flaky.

And so what you're seeing is a lot of
power module failures in the BTC power

units and in the CigNet units.

And it's causing surges because you have
these 50 -ish kilowatt power modules that

will just suddenly cycle on and suddenly
cycle off and suddenly cycle on and

suddenly cycle off.

And it's not really the voltage of the
architecture, because that's the thing is

literally every single Electrify America
site.

that's in and this has been true since
2018 is 800 volt.

All of them.

Like the 150 kilowatt, the 350 kilowatt
chargers are all 800 volts.

They had a handful of 50 kilowatt chargers
that they abandoned.

But if you look at the placards at every
public charger basically that's faster

than 100 kilowatt, that's gone in in the
last 10 years, it's the 920 plus volt

rating.

So,

I don't know.

I see it as being ubiquitous and the
holdup is really that 500 amp where a lot

of vehicles are demanding it and a lot of
chargers aren't able to accommodate it.

And if they are, they're not able to
accommodate it like consistently.

And that was really the benefit that I saw
from the EV6 is there's a four minute

difference, literally a four minute
difference charging to 80 % using 150

kilowatt charger versus

a 350 kilowatt charger because they aren't
anywhere close to maxing out the amps.

It's like 350 amps or whatever, but
they're pulling in 750, 800 volts.

And so here you plug into 150 kilowatt
charger and you look at the display and it

says 170 plus kilowatt and it's like,
what?

Yeah, because you're going way over the
placard rating because the charger was

rated based on a combination of

volts and amps and you're just sneaking in
where the current is lower but you're

peaking the voltage higher so you're
seeing a higher than rated speed on those

chargers.

So yeah, I don't know.

I see a lot of the issues that you're
talking about.

Like I said, I noted that one with EVgo
where I'm doing a little bit more

investigating because they're building
these chargers based on GM funding.

They really do need to be supporting that
350 kilowatt plus charging.

of these GMEVs.

So hopefully they're taking care of that
internally.

I just haven't heard anything about it.

And then of course, Electrify America,
it's a grab.

Life is like a box of Electrify America
charging sites.

You just never know what you're gonna get
when you show up.

And sometimes everything is 100 % perfect
and sometimes they're flaky.

I think, did you comment you had watched
that Jordan,

out of spec Cybertruck through Wyoming.

So that was exactly it.

His experience with Electrify America is
what I would expect.

You go to one charger and it's kind of
peaking, kind of dropping, kind of doing

weird things.

So the power you pull into the next stall,
300 kilowatt, no problem.

You go to the next site, plug in 300
kilowatt, no problem.

I did that exact drive a little over a
year ago and I had through, I think maybe

all of Wyoming where I was driving, it was
all V2 superchargers.

So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna
give the Electrify America ones a try.

And one of them I stopped at, I'm trying
to remember where the town was, but it

took me probably 10 minutes to get the app
thing to work because of cell connection.

And then I plugged it in, I was like,
cool, it's doing...

I guess I think it was doing something to
200.

So I was like, fine, whatever.

I'm happy.

I run in to go to the bathroom and then I
get a notification on my phone that like

your charging has stopped.

I was like, that's not good.

And then I go out there and try and plug
it back in.

And it would only, it said, do you rate it
or what?

I forgot what the thing had said, but it
was essentially the sign saying it was

derating.

It wouldn't go above 50 kilowatts.

Yeah.

so at that point I was like, you know
what, screw this.

And, by the time I'd last in between
setting it up and then having to go back

out, I was just like, I might as well just
been on the one 50 and I ended up just

driving over there.

Cause at that point I had to, because it
was down to 50.

So it was great to see that those have
clearly been updated and he had a much

more, consistent and better experience in
the, taking the cyber truck through that.

But it was just those things that, and I
recently had a really bad experience and I

think I kind of.

you watch the recent podcast with Steve
Burkett and Walter, where I've just gone

like having all these apps, having it like
it should just be swipe my card and go.

if, if there's a savings because I go
through the app, great, but, there's no,

like this kind of goes back to my big
thing too.

Like that extra five to 10 minutes is such
a time waste when you're doing a road trip

and you're trying to like get.

If you're going to have to charge more,
like just the plugin go for so many.

And I think obviously I'm kind of coming
from it from a perspective, like I'm

trying to get places, try and move as fast
as possible.

But then also just from like, you look at
so many technology disruptions, like for

something to take off and it has, it
doesn't have to be just as good.

It has to be better.

And so to me, like plug and charge
experience is better than even a gas

station where you have to swipe.

All you have to do is plug in and walk
away and it works.

Obviously you have to kind of set it up
that first time, but since then I haven't

had to touch it.

And that's the kind of thing that I think
for most users is what would be expected.

Well, and you know, that is kind of
interesting because that's the

counterpoint for a gas station is you want
to get a discount at a gas station.

You don't need the app.

You just need to walk in with cash in your
hand.

Right.

So there is an additional hoop a lot of
times and you get your 10 % or whatever,

five cents a gallon discount by paying
with cash.

But, but hey, it's inconvenient, but some
people think it's worth it.

I'm, I'm one of those weirdo EV owners who
still thinks that RFIDs are perfectly

fine.

You know, because you, yeah, because you
just have to, like, you're gonna have to

grab the, well, yeah, but you have to grab
the cord anyway, so you're gonna be at the

dispenser.

That's what I think a lot of people miss,
is you're already there, right?

So just swipe your card and then go.

But it doesn't.

what do you mean about the RFID thing?

Cause I remember with all of those, I had
to, if it was like to get the savings, I

at least with blink, I think I had to
already have ordered it and then have it

with me when charging.

And so one, like the first time I went to
go use it, I didn't have it.

So I had to use their QR code, go through
the whole process to order it.

And then like two weeks later I have it.

So I left in my car, I've never used it
again.

And that like, to me, that's a terrible
experience.

Yeah, that is, well, you said the bad
word.

You said blink.

Blink is actually the reason I completely
gave up on public charging with my Volt.

Like that blink experience in the 2012,
2013, 2014, I was like, I'm this company,

I'm just never working with them.

Right?

Like it was a terrible experience.

When I got both my Volt and my Bolt, it
came with a ChargePoint RFID card.

I still have it, it still works.

I ordered an EVgo RFID with my membership
a month or two before I got my Bolt EV,

came in the mail, and I'm still using it
today.

Like, well, I'm not, now I have plug -in
charge with EVgo, but I mean, it still

works.

I validated that my RFID still works, but
it doesn't break that model of membership.

And that's the issue that I see is...

For mainstream EV adoption, I don't know
that the membership model is going to work

because I truly believe that a majority of
future EV owners are only going to charge

publicly occasionally and it's not going
to be at the same network.

So if you make a thousand mile trip and
you make three or four stops,

and each one of those stops is at a
different charging provider, you're not

going to want three or four memberships.

It just doesn't, like it literally doesn't
make sense.

And when you're doing like a large road
trip, you could be going through

different, even when I've driven, gas
vehicles, it's like, I'm in Nebraska.

So there's a bunch of Mavericks.

Well out West there's no Mavericks and
stuff like that, where it's just having to

download all this crap that doesn't work
on my phone.

They have to get my data.

And then I'm sorry, I'm going to go on a
little bit of a rant.

The fact that I have to download this
crap, it's a terrible user experience and.

multiple times I've had to re put in my
credit card info and then something

doesn't work because of XYZ and the
silicon actions we can, it's just like,

why does that vending machine work over
there?

And I can swipe my card and I can't get
the stupid thing to work.

that's the kind of crap that just like,
that's exactly why people aren't going to

go to EVs.

And that's why I'm like, I'm always
inherently frustrated by like an app first

experience, like give me the option.

Don't make it a requirement.

and, and -

if that's an RFID or whatever, like any of
those things, those are great perks to

have.

But to me, it's just such a bad
experience.

Well, and believe it or not, even Tesla
isn't immune to this.

And we're going to see in a few months,
right?

Because with GM getting access to the
superchargers, the timeframe I've heard

most recently is summer, right?

But GM has this weird issue where the Bolt
EV was designed pre -ISO 15118.

So it doesn't have it.

All of the Altium has it natively as part
of the CCS -1 standard.

Well, Tesla opening the superchargers,
their plug -in charge now for the CCS,

Nax, J3400, whatever you want to call it,
that is based on the ISO 15118.

So no matter what, Bolt EV owners are
still going to have to use an app to

activate a supercharger.

And to your point,

That was a frustration when I used
MagicDock is I went ahead, I was a good

little EV owner.

I went and put all my payment information
ahead of time.

I knew I was gonna stop there.

And by the time I got there to the
charger, they said, we've lost your

payment information.

Do you mind putting it in again?

So it was another two to three minute
process while I'm standing at the

supercharger, putting in my payment
information just so it would work again,

right?

And so, and again, that's not Tesla's
fault.

it's having an app first access fault,
right?

Like anytime you have that app, that's
kind of why I said if I'm gonna have a

membership, I don't mind an RFID card,
because at least my phone doesn't need to

be powered up.

At least I don't have to have cell phone
connection.

I could be in the middle of nowhere and I
swipe that RFID card as long as that

charger's connected in some way, it's
good.

So.

So I agree with you, like if you're going
to have a membership, it should be plug

and charge.

And if you're not going to have a
membership, you should have credit card

payment.

They're ready to go that works as
conveniently and consistently as a vending

machine.

It has to happen.

So.

For sure.

And I think that's why I'm hoping to see
more of these kind of V4 stalls and stuff

they do.

I know a couple of the ones they're doing
not close to me, but ones I would use on a

fairly frequent basis are the V4 ones.

One just opened in Weed, so I didn't have
a chance to check it out when I was

looking at the Pilot Flying J up there in
Weed, but I was talking to this, it's the

same installation crew put in both of
them.

Now the V4 in Weed has already been
powered up.

That's a discussion maybe for another day
because apparently the EVgo site had its

power drop already in place and the
utility still hasn't put it in, so I don't

know what's going on there.

Interesting.

when I look in the app, that V4 in Weed is
not open outside of Tesla's native

network.

So Ford, Rivian, and Tesla owners only.

So even though it's the V4 dispensers,
it's still closed off.

So I would have went up there to test them
out, but right now it's not even looking

like it's accessible yet.

So...

Yeah.

And I know they've been slowly rolling out
more and more here and there into the ones

that are available.

But yeah, there's one in Chamult, Oregon,
which is really in the middle of nowhere

off of 97 that I'm pretty excited for
because coincidentally, I mean, the

interesting thing I had was the recent
trip I took, I stayed at a hotel and the

hotel had six Rivian Adventure Network DC
fast charters.

Okay.

there in the parking lot and obviously I
can use them and I think the whole time I

was there I saw one Rivian and I was just
like if this was here I would not have to

charge my whole trip but now I have to and
so there was a Not really to complain.

There was a Tesla went about ten minutes
north and I five that I ended up going to

anyway but I decided to try out the EVCS
one that was a few blocks away and just

had like the

Purely epitome of a horrible experience.

Just everything failed it had the ticket
the card reader and clearly it didn't work

And then yeah, I just eventually because
it was charting like 45 kilowatts that was

just like screwed I'm tired.

I'm getting out of here and went to the
other one.

Unfortunately.

I didn't really need the charge.

It was just like, you know what this would
be Beneficial I mean I didn't need the

charge because I could just drive the ten
minutes anyway

but it would just be maybe convenient and
it just.

frustrating to see how much money has been
invested in that network, at least from

the state of Oregon and just kind of still
see the state that it's in, unfortunately.

Well, and yeah, it's amazing to me that
we're still seeing state funding going

toward 50 kilowatt chargers on
interstates.

You know, I'm not one to complain about 50
kilowatt chargers.

I think they have their place, but an
interstate stop is not one of them, right?

If you want to put them in a town center,
you know, like a parking garage.

Now we're talking.

Yeah, 50 kilowatt.

That's fine.

You put them on an interstate or a highway
even, and it's really, and we've talked

about this.

I haven't had a chance to actually use
EVCS yet.

EVCS, yeah, well, and I mean, maybe I
should because I seem to be winning the

lottery whenever I stop at these public
chargers.

Like EV Gateway was another one where they
put a charger in and reading three of the

units were down.

I just happened to pull into the one that
was up and working and I put in my credit

card and it just happened to work.

I was like, okay, there you go.

I just pulled the slot machine and got
some change out of it.

So maybe I should try my luck with EVCS.

I wish you the best of luck in it.

I know that they had said back in like, I
want to say 23, maybe it was even 22, that

the terminals were going to get a update
so that you could use the card payment

reader.

And clearly they haven't, which was one
area that was very frustrating.

And then two, they have two apps in the
app store still, and you have to download

EVCS new.

And so my phone had EVCS, the original
one.

I don't know.

There's just so many of these things that
I'm just like, I don't know, having a bit

of a background in that space.

And I just like how, how, how is this
maybe in 2012, maybe in 2014, I'll give

you this, but like now like it, cause I
mean, yeah, talking about the blink days

and driving an EV back in like 2012.

Yeah.

I, it sucked, but I was like, yeah, this
is kind of fun.

It's the wild west.

Anything goes.

And just, if it worked, I was happy.

Well, and that's that.

nowadays, it's like after a decade of kind
of dealing with that crap, I'm like, no,

it needs to work the first time it needs
to work right.

And I want to get 5 ,000 kilowatts.

I don't care how I just want.

Yeah.

Well, and that's that chasm, right?

Like early adopters, you could say, hey,
we're willing to put up with some growing

pains.

Same thing with the bolt EV charging rate,
right?

You want to, you know, you're willing to
put up with a little bit as an early

adopter.

Breaking down to that early majority for
adoption of EVs really means that you

can't have a lot of these problems.

Or if you do, they need to be the
exception, not the norm.

So.

And like, let's say even in today that
they still made the bull, you can still

sell those.

It would just be like, it's around town,
second car government.

I mean, there's a huge market for that.

And I think in some ways they didn't kind
of niche it down as much as they should

have near the end of their sales.

And I don't know, that's, that was one, I
was like,

There's obviously people like yourself who
can use as a primary, but there's still a

huge market for it as a like second car or
around town car, whatever you want it to

be that I just don't think they ever fully
embraced enough.

Yeah, well, I think the unfortunate part
is they wanted it to be their rideshare

fleet car.

And it's really not appropriate as a
rideshare fleet car.

That's where I would say it's probably at
its weakest.

But for personal users, like I said, I
know a lot of bolt EV owners, a lot of EV

owners who have more than 200 miles of
base range who never charge away from

home.

Like...

Right.

have a free charging on Electrify America
and then they sit there all day.

Yeah, and that's a whole nother problem.

The free charging thing, I kind of get why
they did it just to kind of like Tesla did

offer it a long time ago.

And I think when these.

that was an extra cost.

Even when Tesla did that, there was an
extra cost involved.

They said up front, you're paying a little
bit extra because you're paying for the

superchargers.

You're not paying when you use them, but
you're paying to help build out the

network.

They didn't, they...

for the Model S when we bought it as a
work vehicle, like it was the Delta in how

much one, how many miles we put on that
car and to like to a competitive product.

I think today, I think today you could say
that back then that was there wasn't a

Delta.

It's like, okay, I'm paying 5%.

I'm paying 2500 bucks more back then in
like 2013.

I'm buying an EV.

that can go a couple hundred miles.

And then it turned out a kid fast charge.

We didn't even know that back then.

I mean, they even discontinued the one
that couldn't.

Right.

You know, like early on, like six months
in, they're like, we're not going to sell

this one.

It's DC fast charging or nothing.

Right.

So.

But.

mean, I kind of get that, but right, I
think that that has kind of turned around,

but it just has usually been a bane of
existence for other EV drivers and kind of

what we're talking about.

And I don't know.

It.

I'm just saying like it's free charging
completely opposed to it, but I also see

the perception of fairness is different.

Where Tesla said we're baking it into the
cost of the car that you are paying for.

Whereas other companies are saying you're
getting free charging thanks to a two

billion dollar judgment against our parent
company.

And that's a very it's a when it comes to
fairness, it's a very different it's a.

a different outlook.

Well, and that is kind of one of the
interesting things to kind of go a little

bit back to what you're talking about
around supercharging the plugin charge

thing that I think I guess unintentionally
kind of goes back to the example of what I

think would be the ideal app thing is with
like the Tesla thing.

You can use their app if you sign up for
their monthly.

So I think you pay like 10 to 15 bucks and
then your per kilowatt hour charge rate

goes way down or it becomes the same as a
Tesla drivers.

And that kind of like, like I said, that
makes sense.

Like the inconvenience to like have an app
and do all that stuff.

If I'm going to save a bit of money,
especially if I did consistently, I got

it.

I'm in.

but this whole, like, like essentially the
EVCS experience I just had, I'm just like,

no, this, this isn't going to work.

so here's the thing though, that that 13
you're talking.

Right, but but yeah, you're talking about
the $13 for the Tesla thing, right?

Yeah, but that's a one time setup, so I
wouldn't be able to take advantage of it

in the Bolt TV specifically.

But if you got a Blazer or an Equinox or a
Lyric, right, those have ISO 15118.

So once you set up that $13.

In theory, like when Tesla finally opens
it up for GM, you just plug in.

Ford is running into issues, the same
issues that they had with Electrify

America, where you have two competing apps
fighting over who's gonna, they're

fighting over the bill is essentially what
it is.

And it's the Ford owners who are getting
like.

screwed up by it because it's all I wanted
to do plug -in charge.

Well, no, you have to use the Ford app.

Well, I wanted to use the Ford app.

No, you have to do it.

You don't get the pricing.

So that's a kind of a double screw up, I
think, on Ford and Tesla's part.

At least they have access.

But in theory, some of the other the other
automakers who get that ISO 15118, you

know, automatic plug -in charge, it should
just.

pay your $13, get your discounted rate,
your monthly Tesla membership rate, and

you should still be able to use plug -in
charge.

It should recognize your vehicle
automatically when you plug it in and bill

you accordingly.

So.

Well, yeah, and I think there was, you're
right, there was kind of like the Ford

Pass versus the Tesla and I...

I think the way you sum it up is pretty
accurate.

And from what I understand, the second
part is like the data consumption from

either of those apps that was a big reason
that FordPass was trying to push back on

that, which I kind of get.

But like you said, it makes it a worse
experience.

And I think most people wouldn't care if
it just worked.

They'd be willing to kind of give that up
since.

Most people do anyway, if they've got
Facebook and Instagram, whatever else on

their phone already.

And I totally, yeah, I think that was a
poor execution not to just kind of make

that a one and done thing.

And so I hope GM does do that.

Because yeah, I'm not sure if that's how
it is with Rivian that I don't think it

is, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, I haven't heard the issues from
Rivian owners that I've heard from Ford

owners.

So I think Rivian owners literally might
have paid their $13 membership and are

just happily plugging in, getting plug -in
charge and the reduced rate and they're

going on their merry way.

So, but.

know, I'm sorry.

Where were we going to say?

no, nothing.

Go ahead.

well, I, I realized we're also kind of
coming up on a little bit of the time, but

one, one of the things, I did want to
discuss with you, if you have a few more

minutes was in the plug and play EV
podcast that you were on yesterday, you

were talking about DC, DC fast charging
overbuilding.

And I kind of wanted to discuss that with
you because I think that might be an area

we disagree with, but I thought it was an
interesting, mindset or just kind of like

how you were.

Perceiving it.

So if you could kind of just give a quick
little overview of your thoughts on That I

think that might become interesting

well, yeah, and I mean, I guess I need to
start with saying I don't think we're

there yet, right?

I'm saying that I think we are at risk of
overfunding the public fast charging and

overbuilding it to the point.

And I mean, it's the walking definition of
like a first world problem, right?

no, we have too many fast chargers in
public.

But also it does risk stranded assets,
right?

You're talking about, it's a lot of
expensive equipment that you're talking

about putting into the ground.

And part of the problem too is, doesn't
necessarily mean it's equally distributed,

right?

We're seeing this in California too, where
CARB called out Electrify America because

all of their disadvantaged communities
that they're supporting just happened to

be on

interstates.

How convenient.

Yet half of the counties that qualify as
disadvantaged don't have a single

Electrify America charger in the entire
county.

That's a problem, right?

So there's that issue.

But yeah, I just think that we need to be
realistic about what the actual use cases

are.

Because on one hand, I see the early
adopters for electric vehicles,

tend to be more affluent.

They're the people who can afford to take
the risk on newer technology.

But those also happen to be the people
that both have the time and the economic

means to travel regularly, right?

They're not working full -time jobs.

They're not stuck at home, you know, a
majority of the time or at work or office.

They're able to take three -day, four
-day, five -day weekends and drive across

the country.

I don't know how many cyber truck owners
I've seen.

who have already driven back and forth
across the country multiple times, right?

So you buy a $120 ,000 truck, gee whiz,
you can afford to take two weeks off of

work and just drive around the country,
that's nice.

Most Americans aren't going to do that,
right?

So we're sort of front loading the demand
for the highest users in my estimation.

So we're already sort of getting a missed.

like a misconstrued notion of the demand
that we're going to see moving forward.

But also there are other factors in play,
including we're seeing an escalation in EV

range.

It's not quite Moore's law, but we're
seeing, you know, you go back 10 years ago

with the exception of Tesla, right?

You were lucky to find an EV that even had
a hundred miles of range.

Then, you know,

Five years ago, it was pretty easy to find
EVs with 200 miles of range.

Now it's pretty easy to find EVs with 300
miles of range.

And we know that this escalation is going
to continue because it's a selling point.

So we're going to get to a point where
you're looking at, you know, why doesn't

the Model 3 have 100 kilowatt hour battery
pack?

Why doesn't the...

the Model Y have 100 kilowatt hour battery
pack.

Now you're looking at a 400 to 450 mile EV
that makes 30 minute stops and then drives

for another four hours.

So, well, ask Elon, I'm sure.

Put it on X.

Right, so, and so that's going to reduce
the load on these.

And also, I should say, so we're seeing,

five to seven billion dollars just from
Nevi going into public charging.

But we're also seeing funding from GM,
Toyota, Stellantis, all of these other

automakers.

Mercedes is another big one because they
want this brand experience.

So once you get everybody just putting in
chargers willy -nilly, nobody's really

kind of doing any sort of accounting of
when have we done enough.

and you won't know until you've done way
too much.

And part of where I think people may be
misunderstood what I said is I'm also

counting Tesla superchargers in that.

How many times have you gone on a trip in
your Tesla and stopped at a supercharger

that was completely empty other than
yourself, right?

How many times have you gone, you know,
and how many times have you seen someone

using an Electrify America or EVgo
charger,

where there's a line and they look over at
a half full Tesla supercharger.

So even in these surges, right, we're
seeing extra capacity available.

So if we continue to build out at the rate
that we're building out, I do see that

potential.

And you had asked Steve and Walter, I
believe, and I don't know if they gave...

they might not have given you the answer
that you were asking for in terms of Nevi

sites, whether they're good enough, right?

I don't think that they are, right?

Like I don't think that 450 kilowatt
charging stalls is enough, but that's one

more escalation that we're going to see.

Right now, if you break down the
throughput of the superchargers, right?

The V3 superchargers are only 90 kilowatts
allocated per stall.

when the entire site is full.

V4 is going to double that, right?

A lot of these Electrify America,
ChargePoint, EVgo sites, their power

levels are being ramped up.

So when Walter was saying, hey, look,
you're gonna be spending way more time

than you would in a car, are you really?

Like when I travel a lot and when I stop
at places to plug in my Bolt EV, it is

very common.

that I look around the parking lot, see
all of the gas cars that are stopped at

the same location, the same Denny's,
Starbucks, whatever it happens to be, and

when I go to my car to unplug to leave 30
minutes later, a majority of those gas

cars are still where they were when I
arrived.

So I don't know that we're actually going
to see that same sort of level, right?

You miss all of the people who pull into a
gas station, fill up for five minutes.

and then pull into an empty stall because
someone was yelling at them over the PA to

move their car, right?

So we miss all of the times that people
are actually dwelling 15 to 20 to 30

minutes, even at a gas station or a travel
closet.

So I don't know that I buy the idea that
we're dwelling longer at these DC

chargers, especially at travel stops.

And that's the one area where I see us
needing

a one -to -one ratio of high -powered DC
charging stalls to gas pumps.

But if you run those numbers, the United
States only has 150 ,000 gas stations

around, only an average of six to eight
pumps per gas station, and yet they're

telling us we need millions of DC fast
chargers.

To me, something doesn't match up there,
and I think...

I think they're overestimating or maybe
they're estimating the need for DC fast

chargers based on 200 mile EVs that are
only able to go 100 miles between a

reasonable DC fast charging stop.

So they're making eight to 10 to 12 stops
on an 800, 900 mile trip.

Whereas in the future, I could see those
trips happening in, you know, three or

four stops.

Look at the Silverado EV, and that was the
3WT that they drove coast to coast, and

they made nine stops, nine stops to go 2
,400 miles.

So it's...

agree with you on that.

My biggest issue with that vehicle is we
just got to get better weight, more energy

dense batteries, which is coming along,
but that's yeah.

And the efficiency of it.

But the ironic thing is the efficiency
being bad with that makes it actually a

very capable.

towing EV just because of the aerodynamics
of it, which is always kind of the counter

-intuitive thing you would think.

But I agree with you that I think a lot of
the charges have probably been overly

funded into the detriment of rollout,
because it slows it down because a lot of

these are waiting for the money.

I also agree with the fact that there's

there's kind of a mindset around.

I think the number you say around the
millions to the 150 ,000 or where I think

that is also off.

but I do push back on the fact is there,
well, I do understand like, yeah,

sometimes I'll go to a super char.

I've gone to many super chargers,
especially on weekdays where I might be

the only one or there's one other person
there, but on a weekend or on a big

holiday weekend, it'll be full.

Sometimes there's even a weight.

Rarely there's a weight, but it'll be.

three quarters full pretty commonly.

And I do think it's very similar to a gas
station or gas.

There's, I can think of plenty of times
I've gone, I'm the only person there.

I fill up real quick and there's been
plenty of times too, where even in the

Tesla thing, when I'm going there, it's
saying like, there's like five open.

Well, I get there and there's only two or
three now.

So I definitely would push back.

I get that perception, but I think it's a
little bit more perception versus reality.

At the same time, I totally understand why
Tesla does want to open it up because

then, yeah, they can make even more money
given their volume and how many they have

of getting more throughput of vehicles
there, hopefully.

And I think one of the other things you
mentioned around overbuilding, especially

when you think of like lower income and
kind of like some of the metrics for some

of the builds is right now, hopefully this
will change, but it's just so hard and so

uncommon for level two to be part of.

multifamily or all these other housing
things that maybe you can get away with a

couple of cars, but especially once you
start getting like the apartment complex

side of stuff, they might, it's, it just
hasn't really been executed well at scale.

Hopefully that changes.

And so I think that that's where I'd push
back that like, I kind of get what you're

saying about like the millions are
probably too much, but I think we still

need to see a pretty big ramp to cover for
a lot of EV drivers that aren't driving

EVs yet.

And that,

But that also kind of goes back to the
inherent issue.

And I think why I don't really expect
there to be a good value proposition for a

lot of the other car automakers getting
into EV charging is that so much of the

costs and the ongoing upkeep is to make
pretty thin margins.

And that's why gas stations and like
Flying J and these, they don't make money

off gas.

They make money off upsells.

And so I see the big competitors and long
-term success for EV charging to be the

flying J's and pilots and stuff like that.

Yeah, well, and you know, just as an
anecdote, the longest that 500 mile

regular 500 mile trip that I do through
California took was a little over 15

hours.

That wasn't a WRX on Thanksgiving.

So just getting to a gas pump took 45
minutes.

So is...

too.

So that surge is true of both
infrastructures.

And that's why I'm saying we're not seeing
them building gas stations to support a

million person surge of I -5 on a single
weekend.

But the expectation is we're going to do
the same for EVs.

And that to me, I have to question whether
that's legitimate.

And I'll just close on this too, is as EV
advocates, we have to worry about

the funding and subsidies getting pulled
out from under us.

And I'm not talking about government
subsidies.

We sometimes overlook how private car
ownership has been subsidized by fossil

fuel industries because it's beneficial
for them if every American owns two and a

half cars with their white picket fence,
commutes everywhere, drives everywhere,

huge parking lots at retail centers.

That's all subsidized and when they're not
making money, that's gonna go away.

And so as EV owners, we also have to
recognize that the infrastructure that is

supporting our individual car ownership is
not necessarily going to continue to be

subsidized after those fossil fuel
companies are no longer making the

trillions of dollars that they're making.

So.

and for sure, I think that also kind of
goes to like the whole gas tax thing and

the infrastructure for the roads and how
do you augment that?

There's definitely some ways I like better
than others.

And I think one other thing kind of going
back, I think you're 100 % spot on.

And this is something I bring up to a lot
of people about waiting at the gas

stations for like 30 minutes.

And I've been guilty of doing it too in my
own cars, but.

I think one of the big opportunities is
with electrification is being smarter and

you're starting to see it from a little
bit.

And I don't want to be Mr.

Protests all the time, but one of my
favorite things is the fact that it says,

here are the super chargers.

Here's how many are available.

And now it even tells me how many people
are even being routed to the one I'm going

to.

And I think that that is a level of
incorporation, like talking about like

having plug in charge and your billing
where like,

route planning that figures out, okay,
you've got enough to go another five

miles.

Technically, maybe you won't be the
fastest charger, but Hey, you won't be

waiting in line for 20 minutes.

And so it's like finding, and that I think
that's kind of the software layer of,

figuring out like how to optimize everyone
that hasn't, that was never even an option

in the large and the combustion and gas
station model.

And that also kind of goes to where you
can be smarter about maybe not needing as

many stations and how to do that.

Right.

Well, and that's where Tesla definitely
deserves kudos is better than any other

car company.

They provided essentially guidance and
tutorials and learning and development.

We would refer to them as scaffolding,
right?

They provide their owners with
scaffolding.

So you want the best EV experience.

This is how you'll get it.

And they provide it to you.

The issue I have as a complete rogue is
that don't tell me what to do.

But I recognize that I'm in the minority,
right?

And if...

say that because I'll overwrite it all the
time to do my own kind of way to maybe get

places faster.

But I think as you're right, as kind of
like that scaffolding as that kind of

holding hand as someone getting into an EV
the first time, that's huge.

But once again, even if I say, you know
what, I like what you told me, but I'm not

going to go that way.

The fact that I can then see in real time,
like, this charger, another 10 miles is

completely unused.

I'm just going to go that and route to it
is that kind of level of data that you can

kind of like do through the Electrify
America app.

But so much more consistently have I been
let down by trying to do that, or it's not

enough.

It's not an accurate display of how many
are actually live or correctly running.

But it's where we can go.

ceiling versus floor, right, the floor of
the Tesla travel experience is very much

higher than the floor of the travel
experience in pretty much any other EV.

The ceiling is probably not that far off,
but that ceiling really requires someone

who knows their car, who knows the
charging infrastructure.

who doesn't need to rely on a better route
planner or whatever.

At that point, if Steve and I are
traveling in our non -Tesla EVs, our

experience is probably not going to be too
far off of a seasoned Tesla owner who

knows when to override and not to
override.

But someone who's brand new to EVs, you
throw them in a Bolt EV, a Hyundai Ioniq 5

or a Tesla Model Y,

That person who knows absolutely nothing
is going to have a much better experience

than the Tesla Model Y than they will in
pretty much any other electric vehicle

that they get into.

So, you know, that is that barrier to
entry that's been removed.

sure.

And I think that's kind of an interesting
way to look at it as that floor and

ceiling model, because you're right.

Like maybe the floor of the Tesla one's a
bit higher than the other experience for

other cars.

But then you compare that to gas and
combustion space.

And could you, have there been some that
have tried to do some of this stuff?

Yes.

Like Shell had this app and Land Rovers or
something a while ago, and it obviously

never took off.

But.

in so many ways, the floor of the electric
vehicle driving space and where we are

just across whatever CPO you want to use
is like pretty much where the ceiling is

for the gas and combustion space for going
on a road trip.

And it's just like, okay, I'm hungry or I
got to pull and pull over.

So I'm just going to go this random flying
J versus now I can be a little bit more

strategic about it and have that decision
and choice that I think is pretty cool.

And once again, does kind of help instead
of like,

going to a Costco and waiting 30 to 45
minutes for gas.

I can like, this place is just as cheap,
if not cheaper.

And I just go another 10 minutes and I'm
fine.

I don't have to deal with it.

like back allies of targets?

no, I, I, yeah, that, that, that's, that
could be another whole podcast about, my

issues with electrify America's and
Walmart's and some of the other locations

they've chosen.

But, and yeah, this EVCS place I was just,
that was not good.

I, I had to, I had to leave.

There was multiple reasons I was leaving.

One was definitely so uncanny, that was
there that, I.

Clearly they were having a bad day, but I
unfortunately did not have the time,

capital or mental bandwidth to invest in
trying to help whatever issue they had

going on.

So.

that's unfortunate.

itself, I think we've had about five
different podcasts topics in this

conversation already today, Eric, but I
realize we've gone over time and I just

want to say thank you for your time.

And it's been really a great conversation
in so many realms, even in the little

areas here and there where we disagree.

There's, it is kind of great just how much
overlap we have as EV drivers.

We've kind of seen like,

And maybe I vet too much about how I know
what I have been, but I have kind of

reached my bullying points.

Like, yeah, it's been a decade.

Let's figure this out already.

but this has been a great convo.

you, Ian.

Our disagreements are mostly about
personal preference.

I mean, how can anybody be right or wrong
in that anyway, right?

So, yeah.

And I mean, and that's the thing is like,
there's been a lot of times I've taken it,

like I've done a road trip that is like,
I, I don't want to be in a rush and I'm

totally in the same mindset with you.

And that's when I'm just like, okay, why
don't we have more level two chargers or

like even a 25 kilowatt DC faster?

I don't care.

Just something here that scratches the
itch versus having to go to a super

charger or something.

So.

All right.

Well, yeah.

Thank you, Chase.

And I'm sorry, before we do go, like Eric,
what's the best way for people who want to

learn more and follow your adventures to
connect with you?

Just to, like I said, the YouTube channel,
just News Coolum.

You know, I'm trying to post a little bit
more frequently.

I haven't been traveling as much, been
taking care of some stuff, but I'm writing

up a series of EV fud busting, so yeah,
I've got to go rotate my tires.

it for sure.

Yeah, yeah, so hopefully that should shed
a little bit of light on some less than

honest actors in the journalistic space.

So, yeah.

am looking forward to that too now.

But Eric, once again, thank you.

And we'll make sure to have a link to that
in today's show notes, whether on YouTube

or on the podcast.

So have a great day.

Yeah, thank you so much, Chase.

That's a wrap for this episode of Grid
Connections.

A big thank you to Eric Way for sharing
his insights and experience with us.

We hope you found our discussion on EV
road trip tactics, charging

infrastructure, and the future of electric
vehicles as enlightening as we did.

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