Good morning Grid Connections listeners.

And for those of you who may be listening
for the first time, the Grid Connections

podcast is the show where we unravel the
complexities of electric transportation,

renewable energy, and our electrical power
grid that ties all of this together.

I'm your host Chase.

And today we're joined by David Welch, a
Bloomberg Bureau Chief based in Detroit.

David shares his knowledge of the
automotive market and perceptions of the

market being based in the Motor City.

Especially around electric vehicles, a
topic he's extensively covered and is

passionate about.

Our conversation with David takes us on a
journey through the automotive industry's

transformative shift towards
electrification and autonomy.

We delve into the heart of General Motors
guided by David's book, Charging Ahead,

which is waiting for you in the show
notes.

Should you want to learn more and get a
copy yourself.

Make sure to check it out.

The book highlights CEO Mary Barra's
leadership in steering the 120 year old

company into a new era.

This episode on packs the challenges GM
faces from industry, along with even

serious corporate change to dealings with
the UAW and how they're navigating the

roadmap they've set out for
electrification.

But before we dive in a little
housekeeping, if you find today's

discussion enlightening, please share this
episode with someone who will appreciate

the insights as much as you do.

Your support helps us grow and continue
bringing you the best content.

Don't miss out on our weekly newsletter as
well packed with the latest industry news

and behind the scenes content.

Sign up today to stay connected with the
Great Connections community.

You can also find a link to that in the
show notes as well.

Plus, we love hearing from you.

If there's a topic or guest you're dying
to hear from, reach out to us.

Your feedback shapes our show.

Now buckle up as we explore the
electrifying road ahead with David Welch.

Tune in to discover the innovations,
challenges, and milestones defining the

automotive industry's race towards a
greener, more autonomous future.

With that,

I'm joined today by David Welch.

He's the Bureau Chief of Detroit for
Bloomberg.

Thanks for joining us today, David.

I think we're going to be covering a lot
of really interesting subjects.

And I know you've recently come out with a
book kind of talking about GM and some of

the challenges

but real briefly for anyone that might not
be familiar with you can you share a

little bit of your background and what
you've been kind of doing in the space

around automotive and how you got into it.

Yeah, so covering the auto beat on and off
for more years than I care to recount, but

20 something years for Bloomberg and
before that Business Week, which was

acquired by Bloomberg, it was the Detroit
Bureau Chief there too, actually started

covering the auto beat in Texas, covering
the plants down there.

And this was late 90s.

So he had like AutoNation and CarMax that
used CarMega stories before they all

morphed into something else.

So I covered the retail side of it as well
and taking some breaks, going to New York,

covered Wall Street for a bit.

And, you know, back in Detroit as Bureau
Chief covering the auto industry.

And yeah, the book Charging Ahead about
Mary Barra's effort to try to transform GM

into an electric vehicle maker.

And, it was tough.

It was tough sledding when I wrote the
book.

book a year ago and it's even tougher now
and some of it was sort of pre-saged and

we can get into that whenever you want to
talk about it.

But that's what the book's about.

It's not saying GM's the EV hero, it's
sort of Mary Barra as this character

trying to fix the company, change the
company.

And it's really tough to do that with an
automaker that's 100 years old.

No doubt.

I think that's a topic we've discussed
quite a bit here.

And I know a few episodes back we had John
McElroy on, and that was definitely a

subject that we touched on was the
challenges that GM and others kind of the

big three have definitely dealt with that,
with that disruption in the industry.

I think let's start off as someone who has
been in journalism, specifically on the

focus with automotive for so long.

I think there's a lot of people who listen
that who have been following and in the

electric vehicle space, especially,

have been kind of maybe disappointed, it's
not the right word, but it has been

interesting to see kind of gaps in
coverage of electric vehicles,

specifically around like the knowledge
base of them.

And recently we had kind of John Volcker
and we've had, as I mentioned also, John

McRoy on, and one of those topics we've
really discussed is obviously the

education at the dealership part.

But I do think another part is around the
actual journalism and coverage of the

automotive space right now.

What do you think are maybe some of the
gaps that you've seen, at least around the

knowledge base of electric vehicles, or
are there other areas that you think that

kind of need to be improved to kind of
help make it a lot easier for the average

person to understand and get into the
electric vehicle experience?

Yeah, I think in some ways there's this
idea out there that EVs are really tough

to own.

And it is different.

There are a lot of things EV owners need
to learn, particularly with charging.

The charging network isn't great, but I
think people dismiss the charging network

as practically non-existent.

The fact of the matter is, it does exist.

It's just, it's not on every street corner
like filling stations are.

You live with EVs differently.

And I've seen some really good stories
done on that.

It's just not the prevailing narrative for
electric vehicles that you can live with

them.

And you can live with them pretty easily.

It's just you're going to have to change
habits to do that.

And that's sort of a consumer journalism
bit that I think could be told better.

And the other part of it, and I've pushed
pretty hard internally at Bloomberg to

make sure our coverage reflects this, EV
sales aren't in retreat.

Sales growth is declining.

And that's an important distinction
because...

Before EVs came around, it was, well, the
auto industry sells 110 million, roughly,

vehicles a year globally.

And that's why they're not very good
stocks on Wall Street, because there's no

growth there, right?

It's not like AI or something that's new,
and there's going to be a bunch of revenue

growth unless you steal it from somebody
else.

And that's still true, but with EVs, EV
sales are growing rapidly globally.

And it has slowed down for a variety of
reasons that we'll talk about.

But...

It's not in retreat.

It's not like suddenly nobody wants them.

I think sometimes media coverage as a
whole can get bipolar on something.

You know, everything's great until we
decide it's not, and then we hate it.

Um, this is, you know, there's some nuance
here and the nuance is it's, you know,

it's still growing.

It's just, we're, we're hitting this flat
part of a classic technology S curve.

I think so.

And you do see that reported.

It's.

It's just, it sort of gotten this
narrative kind of took on a life of its

own that nobody wants an electric vehicle
anymore.

For sure.

And I think you're totally right.

I do.

Unfortunately see why it's probably taken
off more.

Just it is kind of chasing clicks and the
narrative sounds more interesting and gets

people to kind of tune into it.

But I agree with you there.

There's a challenge I think just with the
automotive industry in general, with

interest rates and many other things kind
of going on right now that makes just new

car sales in general harder.

Are there any trends in particular that
you think are the biggest headwinds or

things that you don't think are getting
enough coverage around that?

It's something that I've said this on
Bloomberg TV a couple of times, actually

several times, and that's not shameless
self-promotion, but I think when people

talk about EVs and whether or not
consumers want them, and by consumers we

generally at this point in history mean
people who aren't luxury buyers, who

aren't early adopters for technology.

Do they want them or not?

EVs get a lot of consideration.

I think they've captured the imagination
of a lot of people.

The challenge now, and this is the
subtlety I don't think always gets picked

up, is first of all people are happy with
their gasoline powered cars.

It's not like they're walking around
kicking empty cans and grousing about

those vehicles.

So it's the industry's job to dislodge
them from that.

But how do you do that?

Well, if you really think about it,
there's not a lot of variety out there.

compared to gasoline vehicles.

In the US market, there's one vehicle, now
that the Chevy Bolt has discontinued

temporarily, that's less than $40,000.

That's a Nissan Leaf.

And a Nissan Leaf is a compact hatchback.

Americans hate compact hatchbacks.

They've never bought them in big numbers.

And it gets about, I think, 210 miles of
range might be the max on it.

So, you know, that's not a great
proposition.

for people, for most American consumers,
but it's the only vehicle under 40,000

right now.

Now that's not counting tax credits.

I think you can get a Model 3 now, certain
configurations with the tax credits under

that, but they're still pretty expensive
is the point.

And there isn't nearly the variety that
you have with gasoline-powered vehicles

where you can get anything from a compact
on up to a Hummer.

You can get a Hummer electric actually,
but.

Right, right.

There's just more variety, more variety,
under $40,000.

So, I remember having, here's my analogy,
conversations back in the early 2000s when

Nissan and Toyota came out with full-size
pickup trucks.

I was writing for Business Week.

My editor said, well, here it is.

This is the end of Detroit because now the
Japanese are taking their last stronghold.

And they said, they took...

the sedan and compact market away from the
big three, why wouldn't they also take

pickups?

And I said, you know, because of a variety
of reasons, the quality of those family

sedans and compacts made by the Detroit
companies were truly terrible.

And those consumers were really angry and
they were happy to leave.

They actually left with two middle fingers
in the air for the most part.

But the people who bought pickup trucks,
those trucks were made pretty well and

those people loved them.

It's not going to be that easy for the
Japanese to just steal those buyers.

So what does that mean for the EV market?

You have pretty happy buyers.

I think when people drive EVs, they
realize they're faster, smoother, quieter,

and there's a lot about them that's really
cool.

But that's the industry's job is to tell
them why they should leave their regular

cars right now.

And, but they are happy with them.

So for the same reason, you know, that...

then Dodge, now Ram, Chevy, and Ford
didn't lose the pickup market.

The gasoline-powered vehicle market's not
going to just surrender itself so easily.

Consumers, they like what they like.

I think a lot of people will come around.

It's going to take longer than the
industry thought.

And I'm kind of curious since you are
based in Detroit, are there, what do you

think is kind of the perspective and what
you hear being kind of in the hub of

Detroit versus maybe the more common
narrative or maybe misperceptions people

have about how electric vehicles are doing
or that transition to them across the

country.

Yeah, you're hearing more skepticism from
inside the companies.

And honestly, that was kind of always
there.

There were a lot of engineers and people
working in the companies who would see

these big plans from Ford and GM, big
investments and wonder, okay, is this

really that smart, is that market going to
be there?

And.

You're hearing more of it now because
you've seen investment reigned in, you've

seen vehicle plans delayed, and you've
seen sales, not just from these companies,

but from others disappointed.

You see Tesla discounting massively over
the past year.

So, you know, there is, there was already
some skepticism.

Because people don't necessarily love
change, especially within their companies.

Right.

And so you,

You have Mary Bar or Jim Farley coming in
saying, we're going to invest all this

money.

And in Ford's case, we're going to split
the company in two.

And the people in the new co are the cool
kids and the people in the old co are in

this, you know, maybe a dinosaur of a
company.

And it turns out that, you know, the
dinosaur is going to live longer and new

co doesn't, you know, is getting defunded
in some ways.

And so there's probably an, I told you so
too, happening from people.

It's, you know,

So I think what's happening in the EV
market, the slowdown, and also the

slowdown in investment, which by the way
drives a lot of the narrative we were

talking about earlier, that has some
skeptics saying, I told you so.

You know, it's kind of funny you mentioned
the Ford blue and Ford, uh, model E

program because that got so much attention
when it was first kind of announced and

obviously when the market and kind of the
Evie, uh, momentum was much higher.

And now it seems like we don't really hear
too much about the delineation of those

programs unless it's maybe some sort of
like quarterly report or kind of a smaller

news story related to it.

Do you think that

Or I guess one, I'd be curious if you've
been hearing any more of, uh, from kind of

the inside of people that have seen that
firsthand and how that actual, uh,

execution of that business model has gone.

And do you think it's more kind of taken a
backseat just for the financials or do you

have any sense of how that, how successful
that program has been to kind of delineate

into two countries, uh, two companies at
Ford.

Um, I'm not sure.

I, you know, I was, when they did it,
there was a lot of pressure on GM to do

the same thing and GM had said basically
that they had kind of already done it.

It just, it wasn't as aggressive.

They, they, because it's still reported to
the same top executives.

Um,

And actually, you mentioned John McElroy
earlier, John and I had this debate at one

point.

Like John thinks that any company, or at
the time he did, I don't know what he

thinks now because a lot of these things
are going in reverse.

He said, any company that has, doesn't
have its own separate EV company run by

somebody from Silicon Valley, like they're
going to die.

And I said, wait a second, you're talking
about word charts here.

You know, like at the end of the day, Jim
Farley runs Ford.

And he makes the decisions for the Blue
Oval side of the company and the EV side

of the company.

And that's that.

And there are people working on just EVs
at General Motors and Stellantis.

At the end of the day, they report to the
same CEO.

And I can guarantee you when...

Ford decided to reduce investment by 12
billion.

That wasn't decided by one person on the
EV side of the company.

It was Farley, it was the board of
directors, just the same way it would be

if they never split the company like that.

And when Mary Bar decided to delay the
Orient Township pickup truck plant, that

wasn't decided by...

the executive who runs the EV truck group
that builds vehicles in Hamtramck that was

decided by her leadership team and the
board.

Does it help them getting people to
develop technologies?

Short answer is I don't know.

I've always wondered about it because
there's a lot about both vehicles you

still need like basic guts of the car, the
interior, the design, the chassis, all

that kind of stuff.

where you're having the same people
engineered, you still have to work with

them.

So you know, one of the things
historically that got General Motors into

trouble was they used to have all these,
all the vehicle divisions had their own

engineering groups.

This goes back many decades.

And for efficiency's sake, they put it all
together.

And a long retired GM executive told me
that actually caused a lot of problems

internally because, you know, it used to
be, you know, you're, you're a power train

engineer and the transmission guy for
Buick sat next to you or worked on your

floor.

And if there was an issue, you'd go over
there and talk to him.

And then once they reorganized everything,
you know, the, the expertise went hither

and yon and it really caused a lot of
problems.

I'm not saying that's that happened at
Ford, but.

Right.

know, it's just, you know, these things
can work or they can not work.

And, you know, I never saw that as a
deciding factor.

I mean, the bottom line is like these
companies have to figure out how to make

batteries and the software that makes all
this stuff work and get the vehicles

produced.

Well, and that is what's kind of
interesting.

I mean, in that example, especially, I
mean, that has been one, one of the things

that the startups and even some of the
Chinese companies, when asked about how

they run their business or what has kind
of led to the flatness of their

organization and their speed is actually
kind of that old model where they will

have the engineers and the designers and
all of them close to where the cars are

actually being manufactured.

So it's, it is kind of interesting to see
that is that traditionally was.

And it seems to still be a very cost
effective and, uh, time efficient way to

move vehicles forward.

And I, I'm kind of curious with, has there
been talk of trying to move back to that

style of manufacturing more with some of
these companies?

I know there have been talk.

They were going to do that with, uh,
speaking of the Ford, uh, model E and blue

programs.

But I'm, I'm just kind of curious if that
actually ever materialized or you've seen

that even with GM or it's more just from a

in house basically.

Uh, bring more stuff in house and just
also bringing, um, I mean, I can think of

a couple of examples for Ford that they've
kind of looked at, like, I mean, the Ford

GT and some of these where they, they take
a very small, dedicated, uh, group of

people and just throw them at the problem
and let them handle it versus kind of some

of the larger teams that we've
traditionally seen from like the big three

for the last couple of decades, are you
seeing any or hearing much about that

across?

being in Detroit from like the traditional
automakers about going more to these

smaller kind of focus teams and almost
more like a software style of product

management.

You know, they definitely did with, like,
take the Electric Hummer.

Um, they, they did that program in, I
remember writing about this.

It was like, you know, typically these
programs were like four years and they did

it in like 23 or 27 months, something like
that.

It actually might have been 27.

It was a little more than two years.

And they had a very small team and they
used to meet, you know, all together in,

in like one.

one building in GM instead of like, you
know, different departments all over the

company.

And the guy ran it was guy named Josh
Tavill, who's sort of co-head of product

development at GM now.

And he, I did a story on this.

He, he borrowed from Amazon though, like
the, I think it was the one, it was the,

the pizza rule where if you had a meeting,
you know, you should never have more

people, like one pizza should feed
everybody in the meeting.

Otherwise you've got a bunch of people who
probably don't need to be there.

And then he had time limits on meetings.

Like this is how long we're going to spend
meeting to like get decisions made.

But it was a very small group and that's
how they got that vehicle done quickly.

Now they've had problems with it.

I don't know if it's related.

I don't think it's related to the size of
the management teams.

I think it's just switching from making
vehicles with engines and transmissions to

EVs pretty hard.

The whole industry is having a tough time
with this.

Well, and that is something I do kind of
want to talk to you about because for the

longest time, I felt like the traditional
big three is like, oh, Tesla is doing

their little thing.

These startups are doing their little
thing.

When we want to make electric vehicles,
we're going to be able to make electric

vehicles, we made cars for decades.

And a lot of people were saying that.

Probably, but it is a different beast
altogether.

And now we are kind of seeing whether
that's through, uh, I think for more, for

forward, they've actually been pretty
effective, but it's been the cost

challenges.

Trying to get those and supply chain But
then you look at GM and it does seem to be

that there have been some pretty big
issues just across the spectrum of

Electric vehicle development and actually
the manufacturing What do you think?

I?

Mean, I think this could be its own
podcast episode alone.

But what do you think have been kind of
the big takeaways from this?

Experience or I don't know if hubris is
the right word but kind of the experience

that

Maybe making electric vehicles wasn't as
easy as they thought it would be and how

that might be affecting their
decision-making

I think it's true across the board.

So, you know, take GM, they've had this
issue assembling battery packs, right?

The Ultium pack, the Ultium pack, by the
way, it was never like that.

There's no secret sauce in terms of
battery chemistry or form factor or

anything like that.

What Ultium is, is it's an industrial
strategy.

It's, you know, you're taking your cells
and you're putting X number of them into a

box that's a module and X number of
modules into a pack.

and the number of modules that go into
that pack, that's your Lego set.

So you can make everything from a Chevy
Bolt on up to a Hummer, right?

Or a Cadillac Escalade.

And it's basically the same basis of the
vehicle, the same platform.

And, so it's almost a manufacturing
strategy.

And that's the part where they've fallen
down, right?

Like the Ultium cells plant is doing fine.

It's getting those, the battery packs
made.

And then they've shown some progress
there, but then they've had all these

software issues that have grounded the
Chevy Blazer EV.

They're not alone, right?

Like Toyota had wheels falling off of the
BZ4X.

And that's saying something like
Volkswagen's or Volkswagen.

Toyota is one of the best, if not the best
manufacturer in the industry.

And they're having those issues.

The Germans Volkswagen and I think
Porsche.

They both had issues with software, kind
of like GM is.

I think maybe different software problems,
but software problems nonetheless.

So.

Well, and I think it's kind of interesting
to mention that now, uh, with kind of the

ability of hindsight, it almost seems like
the Germans knew, especially the VW group,

they knew they had problems.

So they just delayed all their vehicles.

Whereas it seems like GM continue to just
move forward with these.

And now that they're out or supposed to be
out, they're really realizing how many of

these software issues they have.

But I, I'm sorry, what were you going to
say there?

Well, you know, they're I think in the
case of GM and maybe a lot of these

companies and Ford too, right?

Like they just recently stopped F-150
production because of quality issues.

They all they were so far behind Tesla and
they were in the Chinese for that matter.

And they were in such a rush to catch up.

And they had to be that they probably will
definitely get off more than they can

chew.

And they might deny that, but they've all
had production quality, software issues,

you name it, and have had to stop
production, ground vehicles for some

period of time because of this.

So yeah, I think the software side of it
was probably underestimated.

They might not have had the right talent
in place to do it.

And same with battery, you know, the US...

battery infrastructure, battery industry.

It's like there really isn't much of one,
right?

We're relying on Korean and Chinese
partners for the technology and the

know-how.

We gave it all away and now we're rapidly
trying to catch up.

And there's a lot of software that goes
into that too, the battery management

system.

And, you know, do we have the expertise
there?

I don't think we do, I think we can get
it.

I mean Silicon Valley is extremely
adaptable and a lot of people great at

writing code and I think that'll come but
Tesla has it, right?

So we can, as a nation, our companies can
get there but it's really competitive to

get the talent and everyone's in a hurry.

In a weird way, the fact that adoption and
EV sales, the growth has slowed down a

bit.

It kind of gives some of the established
old line car companies maybe a bit of a

time out to figure out the industrial and
the software and the technology side of

this before the market really takes off.

Because look, if the growth rates kept
going at the way they were going, these

guys would be in serious trouble because
they wouldn't have the vehicles and they

wouldn't have the production to meet it.

So

sure.

In a way, they should be thankful that
this is slow down, even though it's making

their lives difficult because you know, if
you're You're Mary Bar and Jim Farley and

you've delayed factory plans or you've
reigned in investment for EVs You know now

your decision is do you have to do that
more based on what the market does or if

not Like when do you know hit the
accelerator again?

These are all tough decisions for them.

Now they make more money than you and I do
so I have no sympathy for them They have

to make them.

That's the job, right?

But, you know, that's, it's all going to
be pretty tough on them, but they do have

this, maybe a bit of a market reprieve to
figure it out.

Well, and that's interesting you bring
that up because that's something I've

talked to with a few people about and my
take on it, and I'd be curious if anyone's

kind of shared this is what we're seeing
is yes, the, some of the, I think the

demand for new cars in general is often,
but a lot of it is that focus on electric

vehicles and the domestic three, two and a
half, whatever you want to call them are

looking at moving kind of back to hybrids,
plug in hybrids.

So you're, there is a

But my question, what I'm kind of curious
and would like to hear your thoughts on is

do you think it's a reprieve in the short
term?

Because by going back to what they're kind
of comfortable with and know more about,

to me it just seems like it gives Tesla
and some of the other startups, but

especially the Chinese the ability to kind
of just keep leaning into what they're

doing.

So once that moment or that interest
catches up or we kind of see some kind of

growth return,

they're going to be actually, I think in
an even better position, supply chain

wise, technology wise, scale wise, uh, to
be ready to kind of just kind of turn up

the factories versus being, if you're
making just plug in hybrids and now you're

seeing more of a demand to go to full
electrics or other things that you have to

change a lot more, at least that's my
opinion.

And I'm kind of curious if you've heard
any other kind of people talking about

that locally.

Um, well, it's, so it's not like it's not
either or like, it's not like, with the

exception of Toyota, right?

They're only making a couple of these, but
they do have more coming and they're heavy

on plug-in hybrids.

I'll tell you, like, here's what I know,
at least with the US companies and to a

degree with the European companies.

They really don't want to do plug-in
hybrids in big numbers.

I think they want to do just enough in
some key segments to meet the demand

that's there and to meet...

fuel economy and greenhouse gas
regulations that are going to get tougher.

Because Toyota is great at making those.

The Koreans are pretty good too.

But they are expensive vehicles to make
because you still do have this electric

system on board and you still do have
gasoline and exhaust and all of this stuff

on board.

So it's not a great and long-term business
model.

They're doing it because they feel they
have to.

And so I think...

They're all still going to lean into the
development of their EVs.

Just a little less so, but the less isn't
like emphasis on developing their supply

chains and developing the software talent
they need and the battery operations.

The less is just like how much of it
they're doing all at once.

Now, the distance, so they're still going
to be working on developing all of this

stuff.

They will be, I think they're going to be
developing less volume because they're

selling less volume, right?

None of them do well in China where the
real EV volume is, so they're not going to

get it there.

And Ford does okay in Europe, GM is barely
there, so they're not going to get it

there.

So they're going to have to rely on
volumes in the US market to get it.

You know, GM in China is going to be
interesting because they're struggling

over there.

Yeah.

they do have this partnership with Wuling
and Shanghai Automotive.

SAIC was their long-term partners, but
they make small, really cheap EVs.

The Honglong Mini has been a really big
success for GM.

But that's where GM can get some knowledge
on how to make cheap EVs.

in that market without having to like sell
them under the Buick brand or, or develop

their own operations.

So that, that helps them there.

But, you know, so can they replicate some
of the learnings over there?

Like, I think the biggest risk here is,
and this is what the IRA, you know,

Biden's Inflation Reduction Act is all
about is telling everybody, look, you can

get all these great incentives to build
and for your customers to buy EVs, but you

have to do it here.

And it's because like,

The US industry sort of writ large needs
to develop an EV industry.

And Tesla has, but nobody else has.

And so that's to your point.

I think that that's where they can fall
behind specifically the Chinese because

the volume there is going to keep growing.

And here it's going to fit and starts.

And scale is one of the things in the auto
industry and scale is so important.

Well, this, uh, this can also goes back to
the conversation with John McRoy, where he

was saying, I mean, the only reason Tesla
got successful was it hit like 80,000 of

the model three, and then it kind of takes
off.

If you don't have those numbers, then
you're just burning money for a long, long

time.

And I think.

Yeah.

Right.

you know, they're making, I mean, Rivian's
making 50, 60,000 a year last year and

forecast for this year.

Um, and they lose a lot of money and they
burn a lot of cash and Lucid does even

fewer vehicles.

But you know, those business models don't
work.

Uh, those companies, I, you know, they're
probably going to have to raise money and

find investors who are willing to kind of.

towering losses for a long time until they
can get real volume.

Chinese are well past all of that stuff.

Tesla's well past all of that stuff.

Ford and GM still aren't close to that and
they're a lot closer than those startups.

So we kind of have three auto industries
right now.

We've got Tesla, BYD, and these Chinese
companies that have a lot of volume.

Then you've got Ford, GM, and the Germans
and the Japanese who don't have a lot of

volume and stuff to go up that curve.

Then you have these startups that are even
further behind.

and probably will be for a while because
they don't have the distribution and the

sales numbers to get there.

Well, and they have a much worse market
and also much more competition than Tesla

did during its growth phase.

So even same with the Chinese, at least in
their market too.

So it is kind of interesting.

I'm a big fan of the Rivians.

I think they're great looking vehicles.

They're spendy.

But yeah, but I even just saw a chart just
a couple of days ago that kind of blew my

mind that Rivian.

is actually in a worse financial position
than Tesla was kind of going through like

the scale of model three and all this
stuff.

So it was, I'm sure there'll be, I think
of the startups, they're probably in the

best position.

Um, having the Amazon backing of that
money behind it is something if you need

to get more funds, isn't bad, but yeah,
it's, I mean, it's, it is a, uh,

incredibly difficult time, I think for
everyone right now, uh, outside.

up in an era when raising cash was easy,
right?

Easy Wall Street money, their interest
rates were super low.

He could borrow money for next to nothing.

And Elon Musk is just, you know, a lot of
people hate him, but got to give the guy

his due.

He's, you know, great technologist.

He's, and he's great at raising money.

And, and he did it at a time when it was
pretty easy.

Rivian and Lucid don't have that luxury
right now.

Um, and.

And the, and the Chinese kind of did too,
just by being in China, having the

government backing back then for what they
were doing.

So I, I completely agree with you in that
standpoint.

I don't think that's something that gets
enough, um, kind of perspective is like,

even when you overlay the graphs of these
startups and how they're doing compared to

Tesla during its similar phase, it's just
a much different sales market, much

different supply chain, much different
everything.

Um, but let's, uh, we're in agreement on
pretty much all that.

It sounds like so.

Let's kind of finally jump over to your
book and really kind of go through what

you're you've seen and discovered through
GM and the whole process it's gone for.

So I, I haven't been able to finish the
book yet.

I started reading it.

I really enjoyed it.

So it's really interesting, but I would
love to hear kind of, um, for those

listening, what the book is about, what
got you started on it, and then we can

kind of go through some of the topics and
the things you learned.

Sure.

It started with a cover story in
Businessweek, trying to remember, I think

it was 2019 or 20.

This is basically looking at what Mary
Barra had done with, it must have been

2020 because it was after the 2019 strike.

And she had...

She had downsized this global footprint,
right?

Like she closed down Europe, closed down
their operations in Russia, India,

Southeast Asia, all these places GM lost
money.

And the idea was they were spending
billions of dollars on new products there

and losing money anyways.

And they just weren't well positioned in
the market and it would take years to fix

that.

So her huge decision, and this is one of
the biggest retrenchments in corporate

history, not just the US, but worldwide.

She closed down all that stuff and took
all that money.

and plow it into some of it into cruise
and getting into autonomy, but most of it

into developing the ultium battery and all
of these vehicles.

And by doing that, you know, there's an
old saying in baseball, you can't steal

second and keep your foot on first.

So she seeds all of those markets to
Toyota and Volkswagen and some others, but

primarily Toyota and Volkswagen.

Just says, look, you guys can have all of
those low margin sales in India.

And you can have.

you know, the mess that is Russia and you
can have the overheated market that is

Europe and whatever is left in South
Africa and Southeast Asia, fine.

We're going to sell vehicles in Brazil,
China, the US, and we're going to make a

lot of money doing it, and then we're
going to call that money into EVs and

become electric vehicle kings.

Now, and she also restructured the US
business to make it more profitable.

And so what that left us with is the GM of
today, which is a cash machine.

They generate a lot of money.

Um, but you know, on her way there, she
got in big fights with Donald Trump,

right?

There's a couple of chapters that there's
one chapter just about the war with Trump,

but he sort of, you know, she'd be, Mary
Barr became one of Trump's favorite

targets.

Um, you know, she leaned up operations in
the U S which meant a war with the UAW,

uh, which, you know, was really got hot in
2019, but reared its head again, uh, late

last year with another strike.

So, you know, you start bringing out
change and closing certain operations and,

you know, presidents who promise people in
Ohio that their jobs are coming back get

very angry.

And the union gets very angry.

So she had to fight all of them in order
to restructure this company.

And then internally, there was pushback.

You know, a lot of executives and
engineers were questioning.

There's some, you know, inside meetings
with debates on that about how much they

should plow into electric vehicles and...

whether or not they should just do like
one or two token EVs to say we're here.

But her vision was to catch Tesla.

Her vision was to make sure that, you
know, Google via Waymo did not become the

next generation of automaker.

And, and she pushed really hard.

Now the book, I had to finish the book in,
geez, I think May of 21.

June, May, June of 21.

And, um.

I couldn't foresee all that's gone wrong
today.

However, I stand by everything in this
book because the last chapter of the

epilogue basically looks at what was going
on at the time I had to finish this book

was she fired Dan Ammon as head of crews
because things weren't working there.

The Chevy Bolt was on fire and they still
didn't have any of these out there to

challenge Tesla.

And, you know, on Wall Street parliaments,
its GM has execution risk, which is, you

know, that's very fancy banker language
for these guys who might not be able to

get this done.

And so with all these problems they were
having, I asked Mary in the last interview

right before I finished the book, I said,
do you ever feel like this company suffers

from some kind of generational curse?

Because I actually use those words in the
book too, in that last chapter, because

Here at GM is with the Volt, which was
actually a pretty successful product.

It had some oil buyers, sold in pretty
good numbers.

The technology was pretty good.

I mean, 280 miles of range on a small
vehicle that sold for that price, pretty

good.

But then it's on fire.

And she had a bit of a sense of humor
about it.

She said, no, we're not cursed.

And we're not explained that when you run
a big company, there are always issues.

But that did sort of...

You know, pre sage the fact that, you
know, this company has, does have often

have a lot of these problems.

They, they, they just kind of, you know,
they, they seem to open doors and have

doorways collapse on their head at times.

And, and that's kind of what's happened
with EVs.

You know, look, she had, she freed up
money from lousy operations to put it into

electric vehicles.

And she had this platform that was going
to give her something, you know,

categories that represented 70-75% of the
US market volume, right, all smart, and

get there before Tesla did, except that
they, you know, they haven't been able to

execute.

They haven't been able to get the cars out
the door for the reasons we were talking

about earlier.

And it's not, I don't think it's anything
particular to GM's ability or inability to

do it compared to the other legacy car
companies.

I think they push so hard with so many
vehicles all at once.

And I do think they underestimated how
tough it was going to be to make electric

vehicles.

Because they had done the EV1 before.

They did the Volt.

They did the Volt.

This should be pretty easy.

They've been making cars for 100 years.

Why is it so hard?

But it has been.

And I think part of it is they were doing
a lot all at once.

And part of it is the games changed,
right?

These are much more high tech EVs than
they did in the past.

And and by the way, like the Volt or
rather the Bolt, you know, that was kind

of heavily used.

see what you just did there.

I think even with the strip, uh, part of
the problems I had with their strategies,

the bolt, the volt people would always
like, there's even marketing.

I think that's what's been so surprising
to me is how you're talking about, like GM

had so many issues.

Like I feel like marketing, all these
things that traditionally has been

strengths for them, they even failed with
like, it has been kind of a cross support,

but I I'm sorry, what were we going to say
there?

Um, you know, with the, with the bolt, um,
you know, that, that vehicle was, and I

think one of the reasons that they, they
did all right with it in terms of quality

was it was basically a Chevy Cruz heavily
retrofitted to fit a battery and become a

Chevy Bull.

It wasn't an all-new platform and that
platform was the battery pack in the floor

the way it is with Ultium.

And you know go back about 15 plus years,
Nissan opened the plant in Mississippi and

they had an all-new minivan platform.

They had an all-new, they had the pickup
truck which was new to them and they had

an all-new platform for the Ultima.

Even though they've been making minivans
and Ultimas before, it's an all-new

platform.

They had tremendous quality and production
problems there.

And these are kinds of vehicles Nissan
have been making forever.

There's nothing special about them.

They were just new platforms, but they
built off a lot and all at once and had a

real, you know, and they choked on it.

And, and I think in GM's case, yeah, they
did the Volt and the Volt and they did the

EV1 years ago, but this, even this, this
new stuff is so different.

And, um, yeah, it, it was a, you know, it
was more than

Clearly more than they could do because
the past year has been a big problem.

You bring up marketing.

I'm not sure GM is a great marketing
company.

Like the GMC brand is, you know, has one
of the best brand names in the business.

Um, actually, I guess Chevy does, you
know, is very consistent too.

They've had a Cadillac's been a problem
for a long time.

I agree with you there too.

I think what I meant was specifically
around marketing their electric vehicles,

like doing the bolt vault and just kind of
some of this name-branding and then having

these huge Superbowl ads and stuff.

Um, obviously the big stuff of kind of
like having Biden coming in and say

they're leading the way.

And I think that totally all adds to what
you were talking about, about having all

this pressure on them to get out the door
and it just can almost push them to go

faster and

Unfortunately, probably at their own
detriment, but

Yeah, look, I think they saw it as an
existential fight.

And, uh, you know, and you think about it,
you know, four or five years ago,

everybody, analysts, investors, the think
tanks, the car companies, they all thought

that there was going to be a somewhat
linear, I don't think anyone thought EV

growth is going to be totally linear, but
I don't think they started leveling off

the way it is now.

Um, and they really, people thought
autonomy would be

because it's been, has it been about a
year since your book came out?

A little more by a year, a year and three,
four months.

gotcha, what would be the chapter that you
would have written to make it like

relevant to today or like what are the
things that maybe have surprised you or

kind of stand out moments that have led
since that book came out?

I mean, it sounds like a lot.

I mean, everything I've read still seems
relevant and it almost seems like the

stuff I've read so far has just kind of
come to fruition.

But I'm curious if there's anything else
you would add to it.

You know, yeah, definitely.

So look, if I could, if I could do another
chapter on this, then I would make the

epilogue just chapter, I think it's 12.

And then I would have a new epilogue that
gets into all these struggles that the

company has had just making battery packs
and writing the software and everything

with crews and that, by the way, the other
companies have had too, I think it's worse

at GM because GM pushed harder.

They sold this harder and they've had all
the problems ever.

So sometimes they had just software, some
of it production issues and GM's got them

all.

So there'd be a chapter just looking at
all these problems that have been way

worse than they thought.

And there's been some reputational damage
at GM about this for sure.

And from an investment standpoint, what
they've done, they've bought back shares

and they've

raise their dividend.

That's telling investors we're not a high
growth company with our EV plans right

now.

We're a value company that returns cash to
shareholders.

So they've sort of thrown in the towel on
being rapid growth until they get their

hands on this thing.

It doesn't mean they won't be at some
point, but that's where they are.

So yeah, I would have written a chapter on
that.

And if I could change anything about it,
the only thing that would probably really

change is there was some...

The title is still pretty cool, Charging
Ahead, because Mary Barra really did

charge ahead.

The cover language was maybe a little more
optimistic than I'd like it to be at this

point because they've had such a tough
time with the challenge.

I wanted the cover language to be more,
she's betting, making big bet on this

thing.

It's a fight that I lost.

Yeah.

Now that's interesting though.

But you decide in your core business,
you're going to give up all these overseas

markets and let Toyota, Volkswagen, and
other domestic players in those countries

have that sales volume and whatever
business you can do there.

And by the way, you know, Peugeot, which
is now Stellantis, has done pretty well

with Opel since GM sold it to them.

It can be done.

So, you know, it was a big gamble and so
far it hasn't paid off.

I still.

McElroy and I were talking about this on
his show.

We still think her vision is the right
one, but the last thing she has to fix is

can this company, does this company have
the chops to see it through?

That's the big question.

And I still don't have an answer to that.

Well, and one of the things you guys kind
of alluded to or kind of threw out there

that I think I watched this episode, the
one that was maybe a month ago or so, and

I'm kind of curious about...

how long she has to make those changes
before the pressure is like, we might need

someone else in charge.

Cause one of the interesting things I kind
of indirectly got a lot of attention

towards her in a negative way was the
whole Elon Musk pay package thing that I

was like, Oh, this got struck down.

He made $60 billion, but like, well, he
only made that money because of the

agreements that, and I think to some
extent there's pros and cons to it.

maybe unrealistic for someone who isn't a
founder, but the idea that, yeah, he got

paid out a bunch, but it made a bunch of
money for the shareholders.

And there's also other variables involved
in that.

But then it kind of brought in the, even
in the news cycle, some attention, like

they were looking at Mary Bar.

It's like, well, the stock prices
essentially, it went up, maybe doubled at

one point, but now it's back to where it
was after 10 years.

They've paid her $200 million.

And when you include inflation, it's less
than what it was worth when she started.

And obviously that is an uphill battle for
anyone to fight.

I think being the CEO of GM might be a
more difficult and less like job than

being president even right now.

But I'm kind of curious on what your
thoughts are on like that forward looking

and how much time she really has to make a
change to kind of guarantee she stays in

her role much longer.

Yeah, she's 62 now, right?

So she could retire in three years.

Um, and.

You know, I think the only way the board
would throw her out.

Um, I mean, look, it's, I think the optics
of, of the, you know, the first and only

female CEO of an auto company, um, not
saying they keep her if she wasn't doing

the job because of that, but, um,

You know, it's be tough for them to make
that call if there wasn't like a serious,

like something seriously wrong with the
company.

Like they can't just say, yeah, we need a
change in direction.

You're not quite it.

I mean, look, they can do whatever they
want, but I don't think, I don't think

that's why they do it bottom line.

Bottom line.

going to say that's fair.

And I mean, she's been CEO for a decade
now, which is a lot longer than some other

former GM CEOs.

And look, the so, you know, if the board
wants to make a case that they keep her in

place, and the company's profits and cash
flow are really, really strong.

Their core business does great.

And they, you know, and so her vision,
which started with making this a better

run, more profitable car company, look,
their vehicle quality and productivity,

all the stuff that had to be fixed when
she got in has been fixed.

So there are a lot of things on that side
of the ledger that the board would point

to say, you know, that this is why we
don't throw her out.

I'm not saying that because she's a woman,
they wouldn't fire her if she needed to be

fired.

I'm saying it's that it's, there would
just be more of a magnifying glass on any

decision they made like that.

So they would

The only thing I could see is, let's just
say, you know, this issue with getting the

vehicles out, if this persists or if
there's like some terrible situation where

there's a bunch of fires and some nasty
recall like we had with Bolt or with the

ignition switch over a decade ago, you
know, something like that and, you know,

she had mishandled it or was responsible
for it or if they just decided they needed

somebody else who could do...

could fix that sort of thing.

I think something like either just failure
to get the EVs out the door and see this

mission out or some other kind of
cataclysmic sort of thing.

Cause she's got three years and look, I
think she would want to stick around to

fix these problems and at least see this
part of her vision out.

That's what I think.

Yeah, I think those are really good
points.

And yeah, I think you're totally right.

Like if it was an ignition level issue,
like essentially what kind of is the

reason she got on the job previously, that
level of optics, that negative where they

kind of have to make some big changes, I
could see that.

But I think you're right and had what we
have discussed around like the electric

vehicle growth trajectories stay the same.

I think there'd be a lot more pressure on
her around that.

But since we have kind of seen that pulled
back a bit.

Um, I think the points you're talking to
exactly kind of put her in a pretty safe

space for that.

I just wanted to ask him to get your
thoughts on this.

So he's been covering it for sure.

years from turning 65.

Like, how long does she stay?

And, you know, because they've had these
problems, do they throw her out?

I mean, there's no indication they would.

And, you know, look, you know, they've
approved this $10 billion share buyback

and the financial moves that she's made
and, you know, some of the, you know,

promoting some young stars at the company
at the end of last year.

So, you know, they have to be behind her
if they're approving some of these big

moves.

So she's, you know, she's got time.

Now, look, if, if the board comes out and
issued a statement soon saying they fully

back her, that probably means she's going
to get fired.

Now I'm being sarcastic, but it's like,
you know, whatever, whatever puts out a

statement saying that the C we love the
CEO, they're doing a great job.

They're usually gone within a month.

Right.

No, right.

You know, I.

I could see her finishing the job at 65
pretty easily.

I mean, we're already less than three
years from that.

Right.

And I think when we've talked about very
briefly, but obviously we've been focused

more on the EV challenges they've been
having.

But as you mentioned earlier, cruise and
the autonomous vehicle program there, when

you were writing the book and just going
through that, obviously.

I don't know enough about the team.

I don't know enough about what their
program is doing or what the state of it

is.

As far as autonomous ride hailing
services, it was good.

It seems like Waymo even before they, uh,
kind of shut down cruise was, I think had

to kind of the better long-term strategy,
just personally looking from the outside.

And now that there's so much kind of
negativity, autonomous vehicle space,

especially has really cooled off in the
last 18 months, just from what we've seen

externally about like the head goes, then
they move all these other people.

And now it's like every couple of months,
there's a new announcement.

Now they're laying off another 24%.

What do you think the future for that
program is?

Like is it they're just kind of slowly
trying to just say, you know what, we gave

it a good shot and we want to get rid of
it and try not to make as big a hubbub

about it.

I mean, with even Apple just the other day
announcing that they're stopping their

program.

Like what in your research and kind of
like connections there do you think is the

current sentiment and maybe future for
that program at GM?

Yeah, we just broke a story last week that
they were resuming testing with safety

drivers.

Probably Houston or Dallas, they're
looking at those two markets.

Texas is a pretty easy place to run AVs.

The regulatory environment is pretty lax,
particularly compared to California.

So they're going to put their foot back in
the pond here and see what they can do

with it.

If they were going to shut it down, I
think they already would have, because

they were spending a lot of money on this
and their investors did not like that.

You know, when they, one of the things
that pushed their share price up recently

was the earnings were good.

You know, they had done all these share
buybacks and everything and they reduced

spending in Cruz.

And if you look at the valuation of GM, in
fact, Paul Jacobson, the CFO has been

saying this for about a year.

He said, look, if you buy GM now, you're
getting GM at a cheap price historically

and you're getting Cruz for free.

Which.

What that says is investors place no value
on it.

Um, and really, if you look at the other
autonomous vehicle stocks like Aurora, and

these are all trading at next to nothing
and, you know, none of the privately held

AB trucking companies, some of which are
doing some pretty interesting things,

they're not going public right now because
the market doesn't like any of this stuff.

So, um,

If so, point is if GM wanted to shut it
down, they could, they could shut it down

right now.

And I think their investors would like it.

The reason I don't think they will is one,
they do believe in the technology and in a

way, you know, what GM shutting the whole
thing down and a lot of the bad PR and

problems they've got governance problems.

It's almost because they've had one
incident that was horrific, also really

rare.

And now that's sort of their line.

That's not what I'm trying to do.

It's just like the technology was actually
working fairly well.

I don't think it was working as well as
way most, but it was working fairly well

in terms of safety and being able to do
its job.

So they see something worth saving.

And then look, the other part is when you
spend 10 billion dollars in buying back

your

What you're saying is we don't have a good
place to put that money that will grow the

business.

So, if they didn't spend whatever I think
the remaining is going to be one and a

half between one and a half and two
billion a year on cruise instead of two

plus, they would just buy back more shares
or raise the dividend, right?

And I don't think that's going to do much
for investors.

When you're already returning 10 billion,
returning 11 is not going to get them that

much more in love with your stock.

So, you know, they've done what they need
to do to return money to their owners.

And, you know, other than continuing the
EV push, Cruz is really the one other

place where they see some potential growth
in revenue, along with software services,

but that's a different issue and was never
as big a part as Cruz was supposed to be

in this big plan they had to grow.

So, you know, and look, there aren't that
many, there are two Robotech mouth, May

Mobility, there are three Robotexy
companies in the US left standing.

If you got the money,

Why not keep trying to develop it?

They're just gonna have to do it slowly.

I also think long-term, if RoboTaxi
doesn't work out as a business, and that's

different than the technology working, the
technology could work, but you still have

to have a business that makes money.

That means managing the fleet has to be
cheaper than what you can get people to

pay you.

And I'm suspicious of that, by the way,
because I don't think consumers care.

whether it's, you know, Vinny Romano from
Queens in the yellow cab or Uber and Lyft

drivers or a robot driving that car.

They don't care.

As long as it's safe on time, get
somewhere they want to go.

Um, and I'm an Italian American so I can
see Vinny Romano.

Um, and so I, you know,

I mean, one of my favorite things, I used
to go to New York all the time for work

trips.

And so like, if it was between a yellow
cab or I always had infinitely more fun

taking the cabs in New York than doing an
Uber.

But for the most part, consumers don't
really care.

And so, you know, what's the draw for the
Robotex unless it really is cheaper, and

then if it's cheaper, you have the cost of
running the business has to be cheap.

So it's got to be more than that.

And what could end up being if Robotex
just isn't a great business is, you know,

GM is theirs, being the first car company
to sell, you know, personally owned self

driving vehicles.

And, you know, consumers do like stuff
like autopilot, like GM supercruise, like

Ford's blue cruise.

You know, they like those systems and they
pay extra money as a subscription for them

in most cases or for the hardware.

So there's a business there.

And if you have something that's closer to
fully autonomous, I think people will pay

for that.

And there are other things, you know,
there are shuttles at certain places, you

know, airports, entertainment venues, the
Bourbon Trail, you name it.

There are places where that stuff makes a
lot of sense.

And there is a potential business for
fleet owned or personally on self-driving

vehicles.

And so I think they're developing it for
that reason too.

So if they don't have a robo taxi in every
city, so what?

They'll be selling these vehicles
somewhere somehow.

You know, Dan Avin, who used to run crews
for GM said something to me once.

And I think.

It's still probably right, which is, and
this is back when we had like, you know,

more than a dozen autonomous vehicle
companies getting funding.

He said, look, we don't need 12, 14,
whatever AV stacks.

It'll end up being like operating systems
where you've got Android and iOS, right?

You need like two or three.

That's not counting trucking.

Um, but so maybe you need a couple of
trucking and a couple for personally owned

vehicles.

So when you label, why didn't you,

you have commercial, I mean, that makes
sense.

Yeah.

So, it could go that direction.

Interesting.

Uh, I, I do realize we're kind of coming
up on an hour here, but there are two

areas I didn't want to talk to you.

We focused so much about GM as the company
internally, there's been two big

headwinds, especially in the sales of, uh,
electric vehicles and also just the

manufacturing that are kind of external,
but two things they GM has to work with.

And that is the UAW and dealerships with
the most recent, uh,

kind of strikes and stuff, the union
challenges, where, where do you see, do

you see that there is a viable way?

Should electric vehicles kind of get that
momentum again?

And if we do see Chinese and other cheaper
vehicles come in, do you think that there

is a strong or do you think they're the
current path is can be done with the UAW

or do you think that's going to cause?

a lot more headwinds and fighting between
GM and the UAW to get to those cost

competitiveness and the traditionally less
manufacturing needs of EVs.

I mean, so coming out of the strike, we
just had one of the big things that I

think kind of set the union's nerves at
ease a bit is, you know, the basically

brought the union into the battery plants.

And that was their one big fear is that
all these engine and transmission jobs

and, you know, fuel systems, emission
systems, all that stuff, they go away and

then they buy batteries and electric
motors from Asia or something like that.

So

between unionizing the battery plants and
the Inflation Reduction Act, which is

mandating that in order for all this money
to come in from the government, you have

to build it here.

That cut the union on that part of the
deal.

Now, the other part, will EVs be easier to
make?

There are a lot fewer parts and they're
doing things with how Tesla does vehicle

bodies.

And I think over time, that could reduce
the amount of labor needed.

That's kind of always happened through
efficiencies and automation and everything

else.

Does that accelerate that?

I'm not so sure, but I mean, if I had to
guess and say, yeah, probably will.

So, you know, that could be the fight for
down the road.

The way that car companies have always
handled this, they just, they retire

people out and don't replace as many of
them.

And although with this one, you know, this
union contract was a pretty good one for

the union.

It was pretty rich.

And John Fain, the UAW president kind of,
you know, he...

some very tough rhetoric for these
companies and things got pretty tense.

So I think what you'll probably see over
time is that companies remember these

things and if they have to downsize it,
wouldn't be their Mexican operations, put

it that way.

But look, if Chinese vehicles get here in
big numbers and they're a lot cheaper,

then Katie bar the door for everybody
because that's...

That's going to be a problem.

Look, Mary Barra said on the earnings
call, when she was asked about the Chinese

companies coming here, said there are
certain things about the Chinese market

that make building and developing vehicles
apparently cheaper, something to that

effect.

And it's not just labor.

So would the Chinese vehicles be at as big
a discount here as they are there?

I'm not sure.

I think they will be cheaper.

I think we can.

We can rest assured on that because
they've got more scale and more expertise

with EVs.

But yeah, if they can get into the US
market for a lot less money, you know, the

union's going to have a problem and so are
the companies.

Yeah, that's what's kind of been
interesting with the recent announcement

of BYD and others kind of moving to
Mexico.

So it kind of gets around a couple of the
challenges of selling into the US.

BYD even said they're like, oh, no, we
don't have any interest in doing that just

yet, we're just selling to the Mexican
market.

But it is hard.

Yeah, that's true.

That's that's true.

I think this thing I saw, she was in
Mexico City town, but you're right.

It's it is kind of south of the border and
then some.

But it's hard to believe that, okay, maybe
that's the case for the next few quarters.

But once those factories are up and
running, they're not going to start

seriously looking more at moving into the
US and trying to really compete there.

you saw what Biden said the other day
where, you know, EVs pose a national

security threat.

So, you know, that's, that's a way to levy
more tariffs.

Are you giving what, but the Biden
administration strategy looks like it's

going to be, it's used protectionist
measures to safeguard the U S industry

until they can get caught up and, and
compete because right now it doesn't look

like they can compete.

Otherwise you would need protectionist
measures.

Yeah.

And given that we're going into an
election here, it's kind of all up in the

air as to what that's going to be for the
future.

But, uh, re real briefly, I guess the last
thing would be just to talk about the

dealerships real quickly and your thoughts
on, obviously, uh, when GM was, Ford

obviously saw this too, when they were
kind of pushing some of the programs for

their electrification and being, uh,
certain dealerships that would push

electric vehicles or others, you saw a
bunch of dealerships drop out, especially

with Cadillac.

And so I'm kind of curious as to what you
think that means for GM long-term.

I mean, a big part of the actual, it's one
thing to you, they're having trouble

making the EVs.

Once you start making them, then you have
to actually be effectively moving them.

And that falls to something out of their,
a whole lot of it out of their control

with the dealerships.

And where do you think the future of that
is and possibly what GM can do to help

ensure their.

EVs that they start making are successful
and start moving other than just saying

they have a great starting price.

look, it's a great question.

And it's something they need to really get
on top of because, you know, we've seen

skepticism from the dealers, right?

You know, they were, uh, they were already
pushing the federal government, uh, on

this thing.

You know, if dealers, dealers don't like
change, cause that means they have to

invest more money and change how they do
work on, on the showroom floor.

Uh, they've, you know, they've been that
way.

However, if something sells and they can
make money on it, they'll be all over it.

So.

You know, we get down to, you know, the
big challenge for the legacy car companies

is once they presumably get to the point
where they're building a lot of these,

they do have to market them.

They really have to, which is a challenge.

They have to get people who shop EVs to
look at their brands.

Right.

Right now it's mostly Tesla and it can be
done.

Ford did a very good job getting awareness
for the Lightning.

So it certainly can be done, but they're
having issues keeping demand up for that

as well.

I think it's a function of price.

But, and look, they're not going to like
this because they've never had to do

marketing for BP and Exxon and the filling
stations, but they're going to have to do

something to get awareness for charging.

So, and it can't just be, look, we're
working with 12 different apps you can use

to charge.

They're going to have to convince people
that charging is not going to be a problem

for them.

So, you know, this is a different
marketing challenge than they've had, but

they have to do it.

Because I don't think they're not going to
be able to solve any resistance from

dealers on selling EVs just by talking to
the dealers.

I mean, there are dealers who are into it,
especially those who are in markets where

people like EVs.

And luxury dealers are into it because
they know luxury buyers like EVs.

But they, you know, they're really, as we
try to, as we see them try to penetrate

the mass market.

that they're just going to have to have
vehicles that sell because, you know, if

you asked a dealer 25 years ago, do you
want to invest a bunch of money in, uh, in

Hyundai, you know, after it wasn't the
Excel that had all those quality problems

in the nineties, um, you know, 25, 30
years ago, how can I use you in this

Hyundai franchise?

They'd say, no, you have one crappy
compact with bad quality problems.

Forget about it.

But now, you know,

Hyundai sales are pretty strong, they're a
big piece of the market and a lot of

dealers are investing in those franchises.

Those guys, you know, the money talks and
those guys follow it.

So you know, they've just got to make
products people want, they have to market

them, they have to market the whole
charging experience, get people used to it

and that'll solve any issue with the
dealers.

Those guys like selling cars and that's
all there is to it.

Well, it's interesting you mentioned
Hyundai and Kia because yeah, both of them

have had pretty successful electric
vehicles just from a product standpoint.

And so it makes it a lot easier to then
sell them.

One thing I've heard, and I became a
curious on maybe your thoughts of this is

like a lot of very electric vehicle
advocates are pushing for the idea.

Well, the OEM should just spiff electric
vehicles more instead of the regular

combustion engine cars at dealerships.

And my immediate thing is like, well,
okay, so they have to now even pay more.

what thin margins and challenges they had
with EVs just becomes even that much more

exponential.

I think it totally goes to what you're
saying about like, yeah, a salesperson is

going to be incentivized.

If they have to do more work, but there's
a bigger payoff, yeah, that probably would

work.

But do you think that is a realistic
possibility with just the other financial

challenges I guess that some of these
companies are having with just getting the

EVs off to the dealerships?

You know, they may have to invest some
money here and, you know, maybe, you know,

they add incentive.

I mean, look, there's a lot of government
money incentivizing these things already.

But to get dealers on board, do they have
to raise the markup that the dealers get

to keep?

I mean, it's a possibility.

The dealers don't like when they kind of
they do stuff like that.

The dealers want to kind of manage that
side of it.

But.

I mean, that's one thing they could do.

And look, the car companies have been
cutting the markup that the dealers get to

keep for a long time.

And so, you know, if you push that in the
other direction for EVs, that could move

the needle.

Um, I think they've got programs to help
them invest the money they need for the

repairs and service base and that sort of
thing.

Uh, but it is an investment for these
guys.

So, um, you know, it.

to get them all onside, they're going to
have to do it.

Look, you've seen GM with its Cadillac and
Buick dealers, you've seen them thin the

herd because some of them, they just
basically bought them out if they didn't

want to sell EVs.

And in some ways it's better because their
dealer network was too big on some markets

anyway.

So the surviving dealers just sell more
cars and they're happy, because they're

getting more throughput in their store.

more profit for them.

So, you know, I think they may have to
create these incentives, but you know,

look, the biggest thing they can do is
just make a cool EV that people want.

And I mean, it would sound simple, but you
do that.

And the dealers, the dealers, if
something, if customers want to move it,

when I talk to dealers, the biggest
complaint is that a lot of them will tell

me the same thing.

You know, people aren't coming in here
asking us for EVs.

And I mean, the good or bad is if it's a
hot car, they can mark it up.

And exactly.

So, uh, I think that is really, uh, I, I
completely agree with you.

I think the challenge and that's obviously
why Tesla has had so much success along

with some of the other startups is good
product.

You have a product that looks good, that
works well, easy to use.

Uh, and some of it obviously is
generational connection, but yeah, I, I

think that is the biggest challenge that
some of these legacy automakers have.

I.

I agree with you, the lightning's a good
product, but it's way too for what it is.

It's priced way too high.

That's, yeah, the price is still way too
big for most people on a lot of these EVs.

And, uh, I guess one last thing, I'm
sorry.

Uh, then we'll let you go with the
announcement yesterday of, uh, for now

being able to use the Tesla charging
network.

Do you think, uh, I think that does kind
of help actually with some of the

education and just kind of off-line at the
now dealerships instead of having to go

really deep into it was like, Hey, you can
use the Tesla ones.

They work.

Do you think that is a wise long-term
strategy for these companies that

essentially every.

time that someone goes on a road trip or
needs to charge somewhere.

They're using a literally a competitor's
product and then sees the.

Okay, I've asked them this question myself
and they all tell me, you know, it's not

it's not a problem But you know when
you're when you're arch rival and selling

EVs, it's their brand name on the charger
that works Look that is a marketing

advantage for Tesla You know one
underrated thing about Tesla's they're a

great marketing company and Elon Musk is a
great marketer himself And look in some

ways he you know, he can be his own worst
enemy But the guys just you know, he and

his company always have attention, right?

I think they are kind of the example of
even bad news is good news.

Yeah.

So look, if people like the other EVs,
they'll buy them and just use Tesla's

charger knowing that that's the place to
go charge.

And look, Tesla will make some money off
of this because they'll build more

chargers and they'll make some money off
of this.

It's not like the charging business isn't
a huge moneymaker for them.

But

it will make them some money.

Yeah, I think as I look at the market, I
mean, other than Cybertruck, you know,

Tesla's vehicles, you know, you're looking
at two big, two sedans, two crossovers

with pretty much the same styling.

So, you know, as we get more vehicles from
other companies with from brands that

people are already loyal to, you know, I
think they can overcome the fact that

people are going to go to Tesla for
charging.

And the other thing is like people go to
so many different chargers wherever they

needed, wherever it's convenient that I
think they'll be okay with it, but

I think there's truth to that and
definitely in the long term, but as

someone who's done a lot of UV road trips,
I've been consistently disappointed by

the, oh yeah.

And every time it's like, every time I try
to give them the benefit of the doubt and

I'm like, well, actually this is a higher
power charge when technically it'll be

like, it'll save me 10 minutes.

It always costed me 20 minutes.

Um, and I usually just ended up driving to
the Tesla one down the road anyway.

But, um, I, I guess one comment on that is
I, I do think it was really,

It's interesting that Jim Farley and the
four team did kind of position.

I thought they were vocal about this.

I haven't really heard a similar thing
from Jim, but they looked at it as.

Actually, it's a great opportunity to get
in with Tesla and like see Tesla drivers,

then see our products on a regular basis
and almost kind of looked at as an

acquisition or whether that is them trying
to do market and position.

Why they have to do this.

I don't know, but at least the strategy of
it did sound kind of good.

Um, and then the other thing that I hope.

I'm imagining GM will do is the fact that
they included the plug and charge

protocol.

So when you plug in a four DV, it charges
pretty much exactly this.

You don't have to use the app.

You don't have to kind of do all the other
stuff that these other chart.

I mean, once again, which makes the
charging network for Tesla that much

better.

But, um, with that, David, I've taken
plenty of your time today.

I really do want to say thank you for all
this has been really fascinating.

And I'm sure listeners would have really
enjoyed your perspective and just kind of

learning more about.

the GM backstory and challenges they faced
with electric vehicles and where they're

going.

So I'll let you get going and thank you so
much for joining us today.

As we wrap up today's episode with David
Welch, we hope you've found this episode

of Grid Connections both insightful and
inspiring.

David's expertise and his book Charging
Ahead offer a fascinating glimpse into the

challenges and opportunities facing
General Motors as it tries to reinvent

itself in the current automotive industry.

Before you go, we do have a few parting
requests though.

If this episode sparked your interest or
curiosity, please share it with someone

else who would find it just as
informative.

Your support by sharing helps us reach
more listeners passionate about the topics

we discuss.

Our podcast downloads have actually been
growing on average almost 30 % month over

month for the past six months.

The majority of this growth has come
naturally from our listeners sharing our

podcasts with like -minded and curious
individuals.

By keeping this momentum going, it means
we can continue to get the great guests we

all enjoy on to discuss the topics we're
all passionate about.

Plus stay ahead of this curve by signing
up for our weekly newsletter, which you

can find a link to in the show notes.

It's your direct line to the latest
industry news, exclusive insights, and

behind the scenes content from Grid
Connections.

Remember, we're always on the lookout for
fresh topics and remarkable guests to

bring onto the show.

So if there's someone you're eager to hear
from or a subject you can't wait to dive

into, let us know.

Your suggestions are invaluable to making
this show become what we all want it to

be.

For those interested in learning more
about GM's evolution and the broader shift

towards electric and autonomous vehicles,
remember to check out the show notes for

the link to get a copy of David's book,
Charging Ahead.

We're grateful for your enthusiasm for the
subjects we cover on this podcast.

Thank you for tuning in and until next
week, this is The Great Connections

podcast signing off.