Good morning Grid Connections listeners.

Today we are thrilled to have our
returning guest, John McElroy from Auto

Line Network, Loren McDonald, the founder
of EV Adoption and Matt Teske of

Chargeway, joining us for a mid -year
check -in.

Earlier this year, John, Loren, Matt and I
shared our predictions for the electric

vehicle industry in 2024.

Now it's time to see if those predictions
are shaping up for the better or some of

us were off the mark.

And I'll give you a hint, I was off the
mark.

We'll delve into everything from consumer
perceptions of EVs to the automakers who

are leading the charge in areas where
improvement is still needed.

Don't miss this insightful discussion with
some of the industry's top experts.

And if you enjoy this episode, please
share it with at least one other listener

who you think would appreciate it as well.

Don't forget to leave us a positive review
on our podcast page too.

It really does help us engage with more
enthusiasts and bring you the content that

you enjoy.

With that, enjoy.

it's probably still one of our most
popular episodes was back in January where

we looked at kind of a take at the market
and what we'd seen in 2023 and then gave a

forward looking statement or so we thought
of 2024.

And

how our predictions have come true.

Maybe some changes we'd make on it and
maybe what we're forecasting for the rest

of the year.

in case anyone hasn't seen that episode
yet, you definitely need to watch it.

But I think I'm just going to let everyone
do a real quick kind of brief about

themselves.

If people listening aren't familiar.

So John, I'm looking at you on the camera.

So why don't you kick it off first?

Sure thing, John McElroy.

Been covering the automotive industry as a
journalist my entire career.

Goes back many, many decades.

But now is the best time ever.

This is the most exciting time in the
industry.

Thank you.

Matt, how about you next?

Matt Teske and I'm the founder and CEO of
Chargeway, been in the auto sector for

about 25 years and founded Chargeway
officially about seven years ago to

simplify EV charging for everyone.

And so boy is that conversation becoming
more relevant.

Very much so and Loren will let you be
next.

Yeah, Loren McDonald CEO and founder of EV
adoption.

We're an EV and EV charging data and
analysis firm.

Unlike John and Matt, I don't have decades
of background in the auto industry.

Obviously been following it for my entire
life, but really just kind of joined in in

the EV industry about 10 years ago.

Well, 10 years is pretty good.

I actually just kind of going off everyone
talking.

I had to write a bio recently, for an
article I was writing and they're like,

how have you been dealing with electric
vehicles?

And I realized I have been playing with
electric vehicles for two decades now,

which, kind of blew my mind.

and then Loren, I think it's funny too, as
you probably know, I've been talking to

Chris here and bend, and it's just kind of
funny how not only have I been playing

with the V's, but we do also can have the.

software and tech background.

And then obviously John and Matt, we've
both kind of, become friends and connected

through, work over the years as well.

So it's, it's a very, small world, but
also one that just seems to be bringing a

lot of people, maybe let's just say
automotive nerds together.

and so I'm excited to be talking about
today.

Yeah.

anecdote just to prove that I'm not
totally late to the market is I actually

applied in 1996 for a public relations
position at US electric car based out here

in Sebastopol.

They didn't survive much longer and stuff
like that, but I actually have the

postcard they sent me back thanking me for
my application for the position.

So.

Well, you got me beat then.

I think I was in the seventh grade at the
time.

So that is, but.

arm wrestle about that.

Yeah.

But that's cool that you go back that far
in EVs.

That's impressive.

I mean, you were in early on.

I kind of blew my mind.

And I feel like Matt, you and I probably
met at like a drive organ thing like a

decade ago.

And when I was thinking about that, you
know, that was a few years ago, and then

COVID time and everything else.

And I started kind of doing the timeline
that I've been doing this crap.

And I was like, my god, this is it's Yeah,
it's a little scary.

things in my mind.

I'm like, yeah, you know, like a year or
two ago, and then you sit back and go,

wait, there's two digits there.

That's not good.

Yeah, so.

but anyways, let's, let's get back to
these predictions we had earlier in the

year.

I'll kick it off with mine.

I think, mine was that we were going to
see for automakers and especially EVs to

be more competitive that they would start
offering electric vehicles with more

range.

And maybe it's still a little early in the
year.

I'm going to say that really hasn't come
true.

it's been more looking at how to just make
the cars cheaper, which is also a good

thing.

And just offering more models with LFP
chemistry, which doesn't really surprise

me at all, but I was kind of hoping to
see, maybe more vehicles can again, that

high 300 range is an option for a lot of
cars in the market.

I know if you guys have any other thoughts
or things you want to add to that.

know, look, Chase, it's obvious.

You know, you just mentioned it.

They're trying to bring the cost down
while you put in a long range battery and

you just destroyed that effort.

Yeah.

I was just gonna say, no, agree with John.

I mean, there's that trade off, right?

Like Mary Barra will tell you hours on end
that their customers want 300 or more

miles of range, right?

They have always seen that.

Mostly automakers look at that at sort of
the inflection point.

So most of them have sort of checked that
box, right?

And so then it's now it's like, well,
the...

it's $55 ,000, $60 ,000 for our EV.

Okay, now we've got to work on the cost
side and stuff.

And the reality is the people that still
say they need 400 or 500 miles of range

ain't going to buy an EV for another 10
years, right?

So let's focus it on the people who say, I
can drive my two kids to...

grammar school two blocks away in my SUV
with 300 miles of range.

That'll work.

You know, it's like.

I got a question for you guys.

So the EV thing's not happening as fast as
was expected, or regulations really were

trying to push.

Biden administration just backed off, said
you can build a lot more hybrids,

especially PHABs.

So my question to you guys is, what do you
think?

Is the American public going to go for
PHABs or even EREPs?

Well, first of all, I don't like the
differentiation between the irrev and p

-rev.

I think it's completely pointless.

Because functionally speaking,

mean, from an automaker standpoint, you
get rid of the transmission, you get rid

of drive axles, you can, you take a lot of
cost out.

That's true, but it's the use case on the
consumer side for how they fundamentally

understand how to use it, right?

So no one understands the engineering.

But I think that...

Well, getting back to one thing, it's like
unpacking two things.

One is, Chase, your comment about the
range aspect of it.

I think there might be some that argue,
okay, we've got 400 range trucks now, like

the Silverado or something.

It's like, well, yeah, if you cram 200
kilowatt hours of battery into something,

sure, you can get range, right?

I think that, Loren, to what you were just
saying,

And kind of this whole conversation and to
that point about the mix of what is the,

you know, the, the fueling option for
these, for these models.

I think that the people that are looking
for range of 300 or 400 or whatever it

might be, and how we feel like the OEMs
have kind of achieved that at the end of

the day, it's not that they're seeking
range, they're seeking peace of mind.

That's really what people want.

And so it's the mix of, do we do that on
vehicle side or we do it on infrastructure

side and how's the blend of that work as
we bring those things to market?

So John, to your question about, you know,
what does that look like?

I think that.

Again, my two cents on the news that came
out of q1 and into q2 of people that were

gravitating towards hybrids more so than
electrics I think that we're seeing that

the public is understanding and
appreciating the reality around fuel cost

Efficiency and they want that they're also
to the point of cost of a puri V though

Like I can't afford 60 grand, but maybe a
$30 ,000 hybrid sure so it's a combination

of factors I think for you're just kind of
the psychology of it and how people are

appreciating where the efficiency aspect
is going

As for the P have side of it and for plug
-in hybrid electric vehicles, I don't

necessarily think that it's going to
create.

We in the industry feel like those are
lily pad vehicles, kind of like you get

your hybrid, you get your plug -in hybrid,
you get your pure electric, right?

And I think that that's true, but the use
case of a plug -in hybrid matters.

And we've already seen evidence of someone
will lease a plug -in hybrid for $199 a

month and never plug it in because they
leased it for $199 a month and just opted

to use gas.

So.

I think until people understand how to
actually blend the use case of when they

charge compared to when they use gas and
how it fits a lifestyle aspect, I feel

like we're going to see a lot of wasted
engineering go unused.

Yeah, I would just add that, I'm still,
and I think, I think I sort of went off on

Ford and GM and stuff last time, but, of
why they just thought they could go from

ice to be EV with nothing in sort of
between just sort of like, yeah, us, us

crazy granola eating people out in
California will do that.

But you know, there's, there's this whole
thing called the South and the Midwest and

the.

the planes and stuff where, you know, 80 %
of them drive, you know, Ram Silverado and

F1 50s and towing boats and stuff like
that.

And, you know, plug -in hybrids are the
perfect mix for them.

Like the perfect solution for them until
they're ready for, for B E V.

And then hybrids, obviously like, you
know, people hate it when I say this, but

I've been seeing a lot of this now on
LinkedIn is like,

every car should be a minimum a hybrid
now, right?

Like, let's just like, you know, let's,
let's go from 20 miles per gallon average,

or whatever it is, 2224, whatever it is to
35.

Like, let's just, like, if we want to
actually solve the emissions problem, the

fastest way there is just like, no cars
with under 20 miles per gallon, like every

car should have 3035, whatever it minimum,
right?

Like, it doesn't and Matt will

Matt could talk about this for hours.

It requires zero human behavioral change,
right?

And, you know, we're at 1 % of the 285
cars in the US on the road are fully

electric, right?

We're not going to transition this by, you
know, the next five years to get everybody

to BEV.

We've got to do the, to use Matt's term,
the lily pad approach.

We, you know, yeah, yeah.

I mean, instead of just going, damn, that
guy in North Dakota is not going to buy a

BEV till 2035.

Let's get him out of his car truck that's
only getting 14 miles per gallon and get

him a one that's got 25, right?

We've, we've almost cut 50 % of emissions,
right?

By doing that, right.

And.

think to your point, I think one of the
things that just the evidence that keeps

piling up in my opinion from how the auto
sector has responded in a lot of these

moments is that they've been reactive.

I just don't get the sense that there is a
lot of proactivity around what is the

evolution of their vehicle lineup truly
look like to align with emissions focus

and how we translate that to use cases
based on lifestyle.

I just feel like it's just been this
reactionary like, wow, Tesla's a trillion

dollar company now X amount of years ago.

We got to do something to change people's
perception of who we are as an entity to

then pump up our image or stock price or
whatever it might look like.

It just never struck me that there was a
kind of a, a measured moment where they

sat back and said, okay, how do we
actually compete here while bringing what

we have been forward to get to where we
want to go to compete with this new.

pure electric world.

And in that respect, and maybe that's
what's we're seeing the result of that

now, is the you've got dealers saying,
hey, these things are sitting, you know,

like we're, we got people coming about
hybrids.

And it's that consumer psychology and how
do you approach the market with the right

product mix.

And I to your point, it's like the fact
that they just cut it off at the neck and

said, no, we're plugging hybrids.

We're just going from pure electric, pure
gas, pure electric.

Yeah, there was there was some, I think
some missteps there.

So

John, I don't know if you were at that
event back in Detroit, one of the GM

events where Mary basically is about five
years ago.

I think Mary basically said, we don't, GM
doesn't do very well on the coast.

Like the majority of our market is in the
middle of middle of the country, but the

Chevrolet Bolt is crushing it on the
coast.

Right.

And so then what do they do?

Their strategy is.

let's just make EVs for the coast.

And like, you know, it's like, well, wait
a minute, what if you actually had thought

then, and by the way, at the same time,
they said, we're not going to make hybrids

or probably getting hybrids anymore.

Right.

When the middle of the country was the,
you know, the quasi EV market for hybrids

and, you know, or the electrified market,
which everybody hates that term, but, but

the, the electrified.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But.

But anyway, I just still don't understand
some of the decisions that some of these

companies have made.

But end of rant.

now that that's a great rant.

And I think what's so funny is everything
you guys have said, is so spot on and

jumps so far away from where we started
with the prediction of the battery range.

So I'm just going to say my fart, my quick
two cents on that.

And, yes, I, I, I think exactly what you
guys are saying is the vast majority of

trips do not need that big a range.

I am in kind of a small percentage of a
crazy EV person who will go 800 ,000 miles

a day.

And so unfortunately, but not surprising
that hasn't come through.

However, we're starting to see maybe
better charging peaks, better charging

curves to kind of get around that and
address that and still kind of come at

that lower price point.

I think the big conversation, what's
really interesting from everything you

guys just said was around the public
perception and the understanding and the

education of the vehicle platforms.

And I just recently had a very.

I don't want to say eyeopening, but it was
like kind of reaffirming and kind of it's

surprising that this hasn't changed more
in the last few years.

I was at a recent dealership.

It was a smaller town, but it's off I five
on the West coast.

So it is a, you would think it's one of
the leaders and I went into a dealership.

I was interested about a certain, product
from a company in Michigan that has a 150,

a two 50, let's just say of these
different things.

And, I could not, I, the people, I
actually was one of the best dealership

experiences I've ever had in my life from
a, person, like they were super

personable, but the instant I showed any
interest in electric thing, they're like,

you don't want to deal with that.

You got it.

And they were, they were trying to just
give me the gas and deals one ASAP

because, because of the incentives and all
this stuff, it just makes the sales

process so much more complicated for them.

And I think it's like, unless the person.

Is coming in specifically for a model to
buy an EV, the sales and dealership model

still does not want to deal with it.

And it was kind of surprising and really
interesting kind of light of the recent

news about Ford kind of pulling back what
dealerships can and cannot sell EVs and

kind of like the different tier models
around that.

But,

I think that's going to be calamitous.

I mean, you've got a dealer network that
is frustrated by the fact that they just

kind of feel like they're getting yanked
back and forth for, okay, if you want to

sell these things, you got to commit to X
dollars and do XYZ.

nevermind.

Now everybody's just going to have open
access to this thing.

So you've got dealers that are going to be
contentious with that, again, that back

and forth.

But then to your point, Chase, you still
have a buying public that is predominantly

walking in, still anticipating and hoping
that the dealer can answer their questions

based on their curiosities and interests.

And you combine those two things and what
will that add up to?

Not a lot of EV sales.

Unless someone walks in and says, I'm
getting this car that's electric.

I mean, that's the type of person that
will still walk away from that.

And there's a lack of appreciation about
that from, I think, a lot of stakeholders

still.

do you remember what your prediction for
this year was, Matt?

I'm sure it tried to sound smart, but what
did I say?

summarize it, your prediction was that the
hype train of EVs is derailing.

And it still kind of goes back to what you
have said for years around just once

again, the disconnect in product and
positioning of what the consumer wants and

needs for that.

Well, again, I feel like I'm always very
repetitive when I get a chance to speak

about these topics, but I think that I
feel like I'm just kind of like that, that

person who's been screaming a warning for
like seven years, like this is going to

happen.

And so we're finally seeing some of that
happen.

And I think that even the comment that
Marybara made the other day about, you

know, GM's vehicle lineup will be dictated
by customer demand.

And the moment that was uttered, I
thought, there you go.

Like that's, that's a, that's an about
face from the.

What was their tagline?

Everybody electric.

They, I got the Fleetwood Mac song that
played in my head for like, I don't know

how many days on end because of how many
times I saw that ad.

And it's, it's just so, it's so just
disappointing because it is obvious that

it's, and I think Loren, your comment was
like, I mean, I will say exactly what I

think you said was like, Mary, Mary,
whichever way the wind is blowing today,

borrow.

And, and on the comment that I made on
LinkedIn about it.

And I just said, yeah, that translation,
what is she saying?

If people aren't walking into demanding
cars around electricity, they're not going

to be pushing EVs that hard.

That's just the truth of it.

And that, so to your point, Chase, if that
was my prediction about the hype train is

coming off the rails, I mean, yeah, I
think that, and I think the thing that,

that I was trying to convey with that is
that you can, the whole cliche, if you

don't get a second chance to make a first
impression and we have, I think kind of

exhausted the goodwill of the public on
the hype around the promise of EVs, not

like anybody did it explicitly, but the
industry just kept.

really just going about like this is it,
this is it and everything just kind of

glommed onto the hype, industry included
that started making decisions around

product lineup that oops, they weren't
comprehensive about it.

They're not doing this backtracking and it
causes the public to just take pause and

say, well then what do we believe?

And you would go, you can't, you can't go
away from that.

That's, that's a stink that you have to
figure out how to clean off of you.

And you don't do that just by repeating
the same stuff again.

So I think that that's what I was getting
at with that prediction.

So I don't like the idea that I might've
been somewhat right, but we have to clean

it up as an industry.

We've got to be more thoughtful around
this.

No, for sure.

I think a big part of essentially what it
kind of boils down to what you're saying

is these companies having a long, cohesive
long -term strategy and plan for all of

their vehicles, whether it be electric or
not, or as they say, electrified for the

others as well.

And I think it is interesting because a
lot of the pro EV people just in general

lately have been saying, there's so many
headlines about electric vehicle sales,

not being that gray.

Well, they are technically still growing
and it's, it's not that we're talking

about that.

It's just that.

they're not growing as fast as they should
be.

And with these kinds of missteps and not
having a full cohesive plan, it does kind

of open up the door to longer term issues
to really see that space take off.

Yeah, it's like put your hockey sticks
away.

Like we have to be more thoughtful around
that.

I will say, I mean, yeah.

you used an interesting word.

They're, they're not the EV sales are not
growing as fast as they should be.

Right.

Like.

define the word should, right?

Like is it Matt's comment about the hockey
stick?

Is it to save the planet from global
warming or is it what?

That's actually something I wanted to ask
you guys a little.

U .S.

market would likely allow.

You know, no, exactly.

So to go on a little bit of a, I guess to,
to derail the conversation a bit, but, I

don't know now I'm, now I'm just thinking
train analogies, all the rest of this

conversation, unfortunately, but, your,
what you're talking about is really spot

on about how this kind of perception and
positioning in the market of electric

vehicles has changed.

Like you think back to the Nissan Leaf, I
don't think it was a great campaign, but

like when they first launched, they showed
like polar bears.

And I know you've even talked about this a
bit, Sean.

On, auto line about like, the environment
stuff, which I think people like it as a

perk, but it's not really a selling
feature.

And now like you look at Rivian, just
refreshed a lot of their vehicles.

What did they sell?

They sold nothing about its environmental
credibility.

If anything, maybe it's not because it is
such a big truck, but they sold the hell

out of performance and the positioning of
that and the positioning of lifestyle.

And I think that's kind of been where a
lot of the startups or kind of traditional

startups have succeeded was.

Say yes, it can do that, but position the
advantages of coming on electric platform

first.

And then some of these more traditional
like legacy auto idioms, going back to

exactly what you're talking about, like,
stock values for those companies is

skyrocketing.

Let's get on that.

And then kind of just, I wouldn't say
throw something against the wall and see

what sticks, but they're, they're just
didn't seem to be a very pragmatic or

multifaceted solution to kind of moving
the battleship of these companies.

Well, there's a lot to unpack with that.

I think the comment I made recently about
how the US EV auto market has started to

kind of feel, it's akin to a moment in the
high school classroom where the smart kid

was going to pass the test and everyone
else copied off the smart kid to pass the

test.

And then when it came time to apply your
knowledge about actually using that

knowledge in the real world, well, the
people that copied didn't get that far.

Whereas the smart kid kept going.

I mean, this is a, again, the analogy
Tesla, everyone else kind of thing.

we can also argue how that feels around
where Tesla's at too, and how they're

derailing in some ways, I think in the ED
conversation.

But I think that there's, there's so much
to point to that.

To point about pragmatism and like it
just, there was not a, to me, there was

not a sense of kind of a humility around
like, we don't do this yet.

We really have to figure out how to do it.

But then how many times are decisions made
in American business and in capitalism

that are purely based around, we're a
business.

Like how do we maintain relevance from a
financial perspective to show like to show

that we're competitive?

And how often is that thought of in short
term cycles?

The answer is quite often, really.

It's the bang for the buck type thing.

sure.

But John, I want to hear your perspective
because you are in the heart of Michigan.

It's just a bunch of us West coast, elites
just kind of blathering and saying

perspective.

What's, what's, what's the truth?

You're in the heart of the.

Yeah.

Last year, Americans bought 1 .1 million
electric vehicles.

When you tell the anti -EV people that,
they're stunned, because they're running

around saying, nobody wants them.

And then I tell them, well, 1 .1 million
Americans bought them last year.

That's not chopped liver.

And this year, the...

the prognosticators that I'm talking to,
the forecasters, see EV sales coming in

around 1 .6 million.

That's pretty healthy growth.

In fact, that's far better than any other
thing.

Pardon?

No, we're not.

We're not.

In fact, they expect a very strong second
half.

Look, GM's coming out with what, four or
five models?

Honda's accurate just getting into the
market.

You know, Rivian just re -fronted.

You know, there's gonna be a backloaded.

second half to the year, Stellantis is
coming in with a bunch of stuff.

So that's how they think we're probably
going to end up at 10 % market share.

They think the SAR is going to be 1 .6
million.

So that's how you get to your 1 .6 million
EVs.

That's pretty healthy growth that they're
forecasting next year, it'll go to two and

a half million.

So I mean, it's like the growth is going
to come.

Now, having said that, pardon?

Nobody wants him, though.

yeah, nobody wants them.

Right.

Well, that's going to change.

You guys know, as we get second gen
platform, second gen batteries, more and

more and more public charging, you know,
give it three years.

That's when I think things are really
starting to take off.

But let's backtrack to right now today.

One point six million, I'm guessing in the
US that's what's at 60 percent of that's

Tesla.

Right.

So that means everybody else is everybody
else is.

fighting over roughly half the market,
maybe a little over half the market.

And so you got at what, like seven, eight
major manufacturers vying for that.

And if you start breaking it down into
segments of the market and you take like

two row crossovers, biggest segment, the
hottest thing out there, and you look at

its potential market share this year, it's
like 250 ,000 units.

So you got Tesla and everybody else
fighting over 250 ,000 units and nobody

can make money in the segment.

So there's the problem is that, you know,
remember this whole push to EV, it's not

driven by business, it's driven by
government regulation.

Thou shalt reach, you know, what the EPA
wanted was 67 % of new car sales in 2032

being EVs.

And it's just not gonna happen.

I mean, the...

The public's not ready for it.

They're not there yet.

So that's the dilemma that the industry is
in right now.

And this is, by the way, too, why the
Biden administration just backed off and

allowed a lot more hybrids to be sold
between now and 2032.

But that's the big struggle in the
industry.

They invested a couple of years ago when
it looked like EV sales were going to

explode.

They thought we're going to fast track
right behind Tesla and we'll be on their

coattails.

And as the market expands, we'll...

will be great.

Well, the market didn't expand, but they
invested for that expansion.

So that's their big problem right now.

They've over invested for what the actual
demand is, and they're losing their shirt

on it.

You know, Ford's the only one that
publishes the numbers, and everybody jumps

on Ford's back, but I guarantee you
they're all losing.

chase a deer.

those 200 kilowatt hour Silverados.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just, I just wanted to follow up on
something that John said that I think is

really important.

And I don't know if I use this analogy on
the, on the last one, but I used it at a

couple of conferences and things like
that.

And the, you know, part of what John's
talking about is, you know, a couple of

years ago, the, the EV sales, what I call
the EV sales pizza pie, let's say it was a

12 inch pizza, right?

And you sliced it up by like, you know, 40
slices, right?

With Tesla getting, you know, 60, 70 % of
that.

Well, roll forward now, there's like 90
slices of pizza, right?

And the pizzas, yeah, it grew.

It's now an 18 inch pizza, right?

But if you're, you know, Audi and, you
know, four years ago, you had in a

segment, you had two or three other
competitors.

Well, now you have eight other competitors
in that same segment.

So, you know, but the segment isn't
growing six X or four X or whatever.

It's growing two X or something like that.

Right.

So to John's point, I think it's a really
important point.

Like the market is growing, but we have
twice as many EV models.

And so when you break it down at the model
or segment level, like it's, it's hard for

anybody to have significant growth, right.

Because there's just so many more consumer
options.

What's that Matt?

differentiation that we're identifying
here?

It's a great point, Loren, because what it
really identifies is we're getting back to

that brass tacks approach for each brand
of what's the cache of their brand, their

design, their methodologies behind why you
would want to gravitate to that model

vehicle, right?

It's kind of traditional automotive
marketing in that respect, because we're

all kind of seeing it sort of get vanilla
around.

what we're seeing as an offering and then
spreading things out a lot.

And so I think to me, kind of high level,
it's like, what are the three factors?

It's like, well, we've got horrendous
interest rates still, for the most part.

We have a lack of ability for people to
get into a vehicle that might be electric,

that's even remotely cost, you know, like
at a cost level where it's like, this is

practical because you take $60 ,000 and
you try to, you know, finance that over

six, five, six, seven years at seven,
eight percent.

That's a nightmare.

You know, so that's why again, we're
hearing artists saying that the, you know,

okay, use the V markets getting a little
bit more attention now because people that

might be attracted to it, they're saying,
well, okay, I'll buy something that was on

a three year lease.

That's three years old, but I can get into
that for 30 K or something.

I think that's great to see, but I think
it's indicative of what people are saying,

saying to the market, which is, okay,
yeah, we do want electric cars, but we

don't want $60 ,000 ones.

We want $25 ,000 ones.

And also, but they, they can't buy, you
know, fight the interest rates.

And then the last element being, I just
always come back to it is.

Why would the general public rush in to
buy cars that run on fuel they don't

understand?

Because if that's the true differentiator
for the user experience, interest rate,

cost, and peace of mind, there you go.

And we just don't have a good puzzle for
that right now, aside maybe outside of, I

mean, Tesla still has it, I think, in a
way, but Elon is finding ways to just kind

of throw an M80 into that toilet.

So.

Well, I think, well, yeah, that's a whole
nother, that could be another podcast,

but, I think kind of going back to your
analogy real quick, Loren though, about

the pizza got slightly bigger by instead
of feeding 10 people, you're feeding a

small community center or something.

The, the difference also is I think with
this evolution to electric vehicles, there

is, and also kind of ties in Matt's
comment about kind of like copying other

people's homework is, is the fact that.

So many of these companies are going to
like the kind of the clean sheet electric

vehicle design.

And when you do the skateboard design,
sure, you get great lower center of

gravity.

But in a lot of ways, like, especially if
you're like a traditional brand, like

Porsche or Audi, you start looking at some
of their electric vehicle products.

And not only are you kind of confined to a
more specific body style that you're

working with, well, you're sharing that
platform with.

Audi you're sharing with all these.

So not only are you fighting against your
own like group, the, the ability for

different, differentiation is now, I think
in a lot of ways, a lot harder to do with

the electric vehicle technology and to
like make a really sporty EV.

And like one of the big things Porsche
said was like, well we put our, we use the

same motor as Audi.

Sure.

But we put it behind the axle.

So now it's more like a Porsche and like,
yeah, maybe, but I don't.

PR talking point at some point.

Wow.

and so I think that's like just another
example of like yeah, Porsche could use

like yeah We've got our boxer six in the
bag.

You know what we do.

Audi's got their Inline five there's like
a lot more differentiation, but that I

think that's just been a challenge I think
for the last decade and a half is the

obviously the badge engineering but also
now going into the electric realm where

it's new for everyone, but they also have
to share components and then

a lot of ways, the starting point doesn't
allow for, I mean, the Porsche good or bad

kind of went with the two, geared
transmission, for example.

And that's kind of been a thing.

Like trying to differentiate doesn't
really reward in the same ways that it has

traditionally for, I think a lot of these
brands versus like a big thing, especially

when you look at the international markets
domestic and domestically and

generationally, like the software level is
kind of like how the person lives with the

vehicle day to day.

There's just so many of these different
variables that have really made it so much

harder to like stand out and.

I, I would say like, nobody cares about
anything that you just talked about.

Like no average consumer car geeks care
about that stuff, but you know what people

care about?

The key V key, Kea, EV nine.

It's a three row SUV that, that looks
different.

Awesome.

And nobody cares that it's electric.

I'll say it looks different.

I'll give you that.

Yeah.

But I get what you're saying.

yeah, what are they shopping for?

Yeah.

electric Tahoe?

You know, like, right?

Like...

this is exactly what I'm talking about
though.

Kia doesn't really have to have this in
fighting.

Like sure, they've got the high -end and a
little bit of the Genesis thing, but

they've gone all in on EVs and they've
actually figured a pretty good strategy of

how to differentiate.

Whereas like Audi shares stuff with, and
then like even looking at GM, they've even

struggled between like, how do you
differentiate the Silverado and the

Denali?

There's just, I think that example you're
talking about from what is important to

the end user from a product standpoint is
spot on.

The actual backside of it doesn't make,
doesn't really matter to the end consumer,

but the actual manufacturers have
struggled to even get to the point to

clearly build a product in their own,
having their own freedom to build that

product, to get to the consumer that
really has that appeal like the EV nine or

a few others do.

And I know I don't like the looks of it,
but it's like spot on the market for what

the market wants.

I mean, out, out here where I am in the,
San Francisco Bay area suburbs.

I mean, I am seeing like the Rivian R1S
everywhere now and the key of it.

Like it's like, well, hello, that's what,
you know, soccer moms drive in the

suburbs, three row SUVs.

And so guess what they're, they're buying.

My point is, is nobody cares about two
speed transmissions or like any of that

stuff.

Like.

Like I have a, my best buddy has done very
well in his career, three IPOs, et cetera.

He could buy any car he wanted.

A couple months ago, he goes, wow, that
Kia EV9, like, you know, this is a guy

that, you know, drives, you know, Land
Rovers and Porsches and stuff like that.

And he was like totally stoked by it
because he...

He always has a big SUV like never in a,
in my life would I've expected him to

utter the three letters of K I a right.

And, and if you want.

this, this, I told, once again, I think
we're in agreement.

We're just talking about from two
different perspectives and what Kia like,

like I said, I don't like the looks of the
Kia, but it's like outside of what Tesla

do with the Cybertruck, Kia's kind of, Kia
and Hyundai have been the only brands like

making really kind of radical looking cars
that not only stand out to the consumer,

but they stand out and then also deliver
like in the market, what people want, like

going straight to the EV nine and having a
big SUV.

What I hear you saying, Chase, is that the
way that auto brands have differentiated

themselves over the years and effectively,
through the engineering set the stage for

who they were as a brand, we have, through
electrification, there's a great deal of

complexity that goes on with mechanical
engineering.

Think about the different pathways you can
take, how you design an engine.

It can be naturally aspirated, it can be
supercharged, it can be turboed, it could

be all the...

It could be...

What is the displacement of it?

Is it rotary?

Is, I mean, just, there's this very
interesting and very complex catalog of

how automakers have taken mechanical
engineering and differentiated themselves

and leveraged oil and gas to make that
possible.

And then they've applied that to their
branding.

And then to your point about design
language and what is, what does a brand

represent at the aesthetic side of it?

It's been a very complex blend of product
development for a very long time that has

created a.

to in my opinion an emotional product that
people buy into and it becomes a part of

their identity and through electrification
we have removed as we talk about so often

a great deal of that complexity and wow
the maintenance is reduced by so much but

then these engineers and these auto brands
are saying yeah, yeah, that's that's true.

That's great.

So What are we now?

Because now we're all sourcing prismatic
cells or cylindrical cells from Panasonic

or

or whoever it might be, okay, fine, we
have an electric motor.

What's the differentiation of that?

Well, it's a rotor and a stator and ours
is behind the axle.

100 % on, like, it's one thing for Chevy
to say, yeah, we got a big block V8.

Well, how do you sell prismatic cells with
a permanent magnet motor?

Right.

Yeah.

but the gear heads are like, I mean, V8
sounds fun to some people.

It's got a hemi.

I mean, like however you want to go about
it is, you know, it's been fun for years,

but to Loren's point, it's like, it just,
it kind of just goes in one ear and out

the other for some people because then
they buy it for that.

Yeah.

But, but it's still been a marketing
talking point.

Yeah.

like myself, we care about that stuff.

But the vast majority of Americans really
don't even know what displacement engine

they have.

They have no clue what transmission they
have.

Some people don't even know if they have
front -driver, rear -drive.

So that's the reality.

So what...

people think Teslas are hybrids.

So it's like, yeah.

Right.

hugely important.

Increasingly now, the whole user
interface, how easy it, you know, can you

bring your digital world seamlessly into
your car with you?

How does it work with you?

And how complicated or how simple is it?

That's far more meaningful to people
today.

So yeah, you know, the days of, you know,
big block V8s thundering down Woodward

Avenue, that doesn't resonate with the
public anymore.

And in reality, it never did for the mass
market in terms of what they were buying.

So there's huge opportunity with electric
cars.

And Tesla is the prime example of that.

It came blown into the market, flattened a
good chunk of the luxury market in a

totally new and different way.

And it's up to the legacies now to figure
out how to do the same thing.

Well, and John, to that point, what they
have to figure out is they're reimagining

the core competency and the heritage of
what their brands have been, not being

mechanical engineering, not being around
the big loud, that's the thing too, is

even the sensory experience of the brand
that they've built for a century.

We are taking away the sound, we are
taking away the feel of a rumble.

I mean, there are things that we hear this
all the time, the smell.

Right?

No.

so like, that's, that's why I'm talking
about that's that, but that, that's why it

works so well for them is like, this is
kind of a clean sheet to position us.

And now we can deliver what the market
wants.

Whereas if you're out, you're like, well,
how do we make this kind of like sexy

German, European, sporty electric thing,
and then compete against the other

Germans.

But.

Loren, you were bringing it up.

I mean, Hyundai, Kia, Genesis, they're
rocking it.

I mean, if you had told me pre -COVID that
in five years, people would be paying $60

,000 for a Kia, I would have laughed at
you.

You don't know what you're talking about.

And they have been brilliant, Kia and
Hyundai, at going, hey, here's our

opportunity.

Toyota's dragging its feet.

Honda's trying to figure out what to do.

Nissan, they tried.

They're not even in the picture.

Here's our chance, because those are the
people who cross shop our cars.

It's not the Detroit three, it's the
Japanese who cross shop to an extent,

maybe Volkswagen.

So they took the bull by the horns and
they've run with it.

I don't think they're making any money on
it, but man, have they changed people's

perceptions of their brand.

And now they're perceived as one of the
leaders in electrification, at least

amongst the legacies.

No, John, I think you just captured the
brand perception that they captured of

being of an innovative brand and being a
part of the future of transportation.

I think the thing you point out to John,
that's so fundamental on the software side

is at the end of the day, because of the
simplification of the drivetrain, and if

you can have a high voltage battery pack
that just is reliable, software is going

to be the key for all of these companies
moving forward.

And, but even for Kia Hyundai, that's not
where they've really been shining.

It's really been about design language,
doing something retro or fun and really

establishing that they are by image an
innovative EV company.

that's generally fair, Matt, but I would
also say their user interface is one of

the best in the business.

I mean, something as simple as pairing the
phone.

I mean, it's...

some.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that there's still gaps of
just some of the basic functionalities of

like, again, Tesla, Rivian.

I think that if you look, if you go and
use the interface of those two vehicles

and then you go and use a Kia Hyundai, you
see the vast gaps in my opinion.

Yeah.

agree because...

wait for it to take three seconds for it
to go to the next screen.

And that's where you're just like, okay,
yeah.

Right.

the legacy automakers are not, they're
trying to learn how and they're struggling

with it.

I mean, really, you know, Cariad blew up
in, in Volkswagen's face.

Mary Bar was just out on the West coast
opening a new software, you know, center

in Silicon Valley because they've
recognized, we got to go to the Valley if

we're really going to be able to compete
here.

Yeah.

you know, Ford's doing a skunkworks
program out there too.

But that's their struggle is they've got
this big legacy industrial machine that so

many people's and communities lives depend
upon.

And they've got to figure out how to build
up a new company within at the same time

and don't mix the two because the big
industrial machine will smother anything

that comes in new if it's allowed to, you
know, work together.

So they got to keep it separate.

It's a huge mess.

It's going to be a mess for the rest of
the decade, and it's all a race to see who

screws up the least.

So John, do you, well, I was going to say,
John, do you remember what your prediction

for 2024 was originally?

I mean, we kind of went down a rabbit
hole, but we had been talking about sales,

of EVs really.

And your prediction was you didn't think
that the $7 ,500 point of sale would

really make a big difference or move the
needle in selling EVs.

And to be honest, we've brought up
incentives a little bit, but we haven't

really talked about that as like,

What is impacting or making a difference
one way or the other?

Sure.

It's price, but I'm kind of curious if you
still agree with that or I kind of think

it just helps with the price argument, but
I don't think it's.

Yeah.

But, you know,

It's not like, yes, I'm going to do it
because of $7 ,500.

don't think it's moved the needle, but
here's again, to why on my show, Autoline

After Hours, we just had an executive from
JD Power, and she dropped a bombshell, I

thought.

40 % of the new car buying public in the
United States has no clue of the $7 ,500

rebate for EVs.

Don't even know about it.

And she's like, you want to sell EVs?

Tell the public $7 ,500.

I mean, it should be front and center.

Instead of saying, you know, save the
planet or zero emissions or long range or

whatever it happens to be, you know, let
the public know there's money out there.

And by the way, there's of course the OEMs
wouldn't do much about used, but nobody

knows about that.

What is it?

Forty five hundred dollars, four thousand
bucks.

If you buy a used TV, nobody knows about
that.

Well, but they pulled the rug out from
under the success that that $7 ,500 tax

credit had been by how they applied it to
battery production, mineral procurement.

I think that the best of intentions by
policymakers to say we're incentivizing

job creation and innovation in industry
domestically.

That's the goal of this.

But I think they needed to stage that.

And we've already seen them backtrack on
it, Loren, right?

I mean, they've actually said like,

All right, we're taking a step back on
when were the dates on this so we can

bring some more EVs back into that 7 ,500
fold because it went from like 45, 50

vehicles to like 13.

And it's like, well, that's part of why
people stopped giving a damn about that.

So.

And I think, I think that's like the, the
flaw and to connect what you said with

what John said is like, there was good
intent for the redesign of the tax credit,

but it turned into trade policy, anti
-China policy, not how do we get more EVs

in the hands of American consumers?

They confluentated the two and therefore,
like you said, it went from 80 EVs could

qualify for some level of the tax credit.

I needed an XL.

you know, a file to figure out what it
was, but it, but, but, but yeah, but now

it's like, okay, it's there's, there's
like 10 of them that qualify.

Like, so I think everybody, like, I always
say this, Matt, you know, this, that, that

in the face of complexity, consumers
choose simplicity and you know, like this

got so complex that it's just going to
screw it.

I'm going to buy a Toyota Camry hybrid.

You know, it's like,

said earlier, it's like they're going in
and asking these questions and like you

experienced with that one dealership where
the moment it came to talking about any of

this stuff, they're like, we don't even
want to bring it up, man.

Like just buy that thing that runs on
gasoline.

I will get my commission.

You'll get a vehicle that takes you down
the road, you know, and that keys right to

what Lawrence is saying.

It's like, yeah, a path of least
resistance without a doubt.

Yeah, I think.

our predictions were fairly good.

Well, I think Loren might've been the most
spot on.

Do you remember what yours was, Loren?

I don't really, but I think I said
something like that.

I thought EV sales were going to continue
to grow at a fairly strong level, but

obviously less than previous years.

I don't know.

Something like that, maybe.

You should phone a friend.

That was incorrect.

Now, you actually had two that were pretty
spot on.

You said that we will see a return of plug
-in hybrids, which we've kind of already

talked about quite a bit.

And then you said 2024 is going to be an
ugly year in the EV charging space.

yeah, yeah, that.

all coming back.

Yes.

I was, I would like to say I was right on
both of those.

Yeah.

I think you were extremely right on both
of those.

As kind of the guy who is the one that
always tracks the Nevi funding and that

whole space, I think probably better than
anyone else out there.

Are there any other kind of interesting
trends you've been seeing with kind of the

rollout of more EV chargers because of
some of this fallout?

Yeah, I mean, you know, kind of in no
particular order.

I mean, I think one of the trends we've
seen is a shift in who the site hosts are

and like the whole business model for the
fast charging industry.

So more than 50 % of the site host
winners, they're not necessarily the

applicant.

Sometimes they are.

Are the, you know,

the sheets, the wah -wahs, the circle Ks,
the travel centers of America, the pilot,

the loves, et cetera.

Why?

Because they check all of the boxes that
the states are looking for.

Safe, well -lit amenities, bathroom, wifi,
food, et cetera.

And so at one level, the fast charging
industry,

You know, sort of started out as what I
call the grant and incentives business.

There is no business model there.

It's let's go out and get money from the
state, from the air resources board, from

utilities.

we'll build these things with this other
money and then cross our fingers in four

or five years.

There's enough people are driving EVs that
will break even.

Right.

And then, you know, and, and, you know,

that hasn't worked so well for everybody.

We're starting to see utilization is
actually really starting to get solid now.

But I think the sort of the real shift,
the inflection point we started to see

this year is that all of the major oil
companies slash convenience store, travel

center chains woke up and go, went, my
God, we're like.

perfect for the future of this transition.

People are going to sit for 20, 30 minutes
at our place.

They're going to walk inside and spend
$15, $20 on food and beverages.

Right?

Like, how do we get some of this money?

Let's do this.

Right?

So I think there's a shift in
fundamentally it's the same transition

that happened with gas stations.

Right?

Like, you know, John and I are old enough
to know this, but you know, like,

30, 40 years ago, they were gas stations
with service bays, right?

And now, so it was fascinating.

I've learned a lot about a Midwest
convenience store chain called Quick Trip.

35 % of their revenue is now from food.

food, right?

Like they're a supermarket with 12 gas
pumps out front.

Like they've completely flipped.

And so I think that's like the kind of
this year, that's been one of the things

that I think we all saw was coming, but
it's actually starting to happen.

Like all these companies have jumped on
board.

The second part, Chase, really what you
sort of referred to is...

Too many companies, just like what John
was talking about in sort of the

automotive EV space, too many hardware
companies have entered the fast charging

space.

I mean, I have clients that I can't
mention that are from Asia and stuff that

are planning major attacks on the US, you
know, that was wrong term to use, that are

planning to enter the US market next year,
right?

Like we already have...

many fast charging hardware companies, but
they're just coming in droves, right?

And so there's certain companies, I won't
mention their name, but like, they were

just too expensive, right?

And so it's gotten much more difficult and
much more competitive in the fast charging

hardware space in particular, right?

And so, yeah, and so we're seeing some
fallout from that.

and, yeah, it's, it's going to continue to
be ugly, but then we also have like just

dozens and dozens of new entrance into the
charging network space.

and, you know, and we're seeing new
companies like Rov, if you've heard of

them out of Southern California, that's
building like a, a four court, they call

them in Europe, but basically it's a store
with solar canopies and 40 bays and.

you know, you're, you're going there for,
to go inside the store, right.

While your car sits out front, right?

So we're going to see a lot of innovation.

and if those companies do that, right,
then people aren't going to want to stop

at the fast chargers that are located out
by the garbage cans, you know, be behind

a, you know, McDonald's restaurant down
off of I, I five, right.

They're going to want to go to a much
better environment.

So we're, we're.

We're in the midst of a kind of
significant shift in business models,

players, competitiveness.

I know that was a lot, but yeah, there's a
lot going on in the space.

Yeah, it definitely seems like what we've
the charging spaces struggled with was

like getting the right land and making
sure they get the permitting and all this

stuff set up just even get the thing built
like a couple of years ago and it still

is, but especially then, and then it
became reliability.

And now you have like the electrify
Americas who don't even make their own

hardware.

They buy the hardware.

They have to do all of this kind of
finagling behind the scenes to find a

place to do this.

And yeah, now you have.

the kind of the gas state, large gas
station, C stores come in that they know

how to do permitting.

They have the land, they have all this.

they'll just take some free money if they
can, and then just have the people come

and buy the stuff they're already buying.

They don't really care if it's gas or
electricity.

They're not really making money in either
of those.

And I think then what's really interesting
too, is like, when you actually look at

the EV charging hardware space, it kind of
reminds me of like the PC market, like a

decade and a half ago, where it was just
like battle of.

Who has the most widgets?

And then in the end, it just became like
the Asian markets just flooded it with

price for what could kind of come in and
deliver the same value because it really

didn't matter as long as it worked.

Who did what better and who had maybe a
slightly different better charging screen

because so much of it has also become a
software level too that just kind of

becomes the end consumer doesn't care.

They just want the best price.

Well, if they can't differentiate for
functionality, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I realized we were kind of coming up
on the end of our time here and I feel

like that's probably maybe that's a bit of
a sour point to get on.

But, I, yeah, I don't know if there's any
positive out, real quickly.

If I, if anyone on here has any kind of
positive outlooks about the EV space, or

EV charting space that they've seen
recently.

I, I, go Loren.

some positive news is Tesla's rehiring
some of the people that they laid off.

Sorry, slow golf clap on that one.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was, that wasn't that a fun
month.

I mean, it felt like it just overtook
every like moment of talking around what's

going on in this space and, and, you know,
and the collective gasp of the industry

had, I mean, it's good.

That's good to hear.

I just don't like the idea that, you know,
we had a lot of people.

good.

what's really interesting is that news
masked so much other like bad EV charging

news, it's cause Tesla gets headlines and
then there's like, well, yeah.

And then XYZ charging company laid off
3000 people.

It's like, there were so many other like,
yeah, exactly.

So many other things like, well, if
they're announcing that's getting all the

headlines, let's say our bad news, like
free wire, we're going for bankruptcy kind

of, and it was just like stuff like that.

And, I, I don't know.

I.

It definitely didn't look good, but my
take is like, whenever you look at Tesla,

it's always like, what's there's some
short -term craziness.

Like, what was it last year?

They laid off all their salespeople and
then they still sold a bunch of cars.

it always seems like there's these super
erratic decisions, good or bad that gets a

lot of headlines.

And then you kind of look at the long
-term output of their success.

And it kind of just seems to kind of all
go away.

I was kind of what, what's really funny to
me.

And I don't know.

I'd be kind of curious maybe on the, on
your thoughts, Loren, about this.

is when I first heard this, it reminded me
of so many things I've heard happen

previously, in the tech industry.

Like I have heard so many times where
like, like someone gets annoyed by a team

and they just let the whole team go.

Like Steve jobs was famous for like
letting the original version of iCloud

team just go cause he didn't like the
product.

and I think it just got so well, and I'm
not even talking about iCloud.

I'm talking about like the me .com thing
way back in the day, like,

yeah.

Yeah.

and so to me, it is just really
interesting that I feel it, I guess I was

trying to be positive and now it's just
being negative, but it is, kind of weird

how it, there isn't a good, all this
really short -term, like small kind of

things.

And yeah, it's not great that he fired all
those people and like hired half of them

back in the next week anyway, but it's
like, it just,

kind of feeds in unfortunately to so much
of the media narrative and kind of a lot

of the headlines that people are seeing
versus like the actual facts and kind of

looking at it from like a longer term
thing.

And I don't know, John, you're smiling.

So I guess maybe that maybe nothing's new.

It just, it's me venting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

about them?

So here's one thing that I noticed that I
thought was important.

US EB sales not growing that fast this
year.

We talked about maybe second half being
different, but that's mainly because, and

this is based on registrations, because
Tesla does not report sales in the United

States, but based on that, the large...

largely the slowdown has been with Tesla.

And if you take it out of the equation and
look at the other legacies, EV sales grew

75%.

So I think that's extremely positive.

And if Tesla gets its act together, things
will be pretty good.

Well, that's a great point.

And the one comment I made when all this
news came about about the supercharger

team and everything else, the one element
that I think is, and I've shared this idea

on LinkedIn, is Elon is becoming a genuine
net negative for the Tesla brand.

And I don't know how in the long term
they're going to contend with that, but

you can just, you see it on social media
and owners groups all the time that did

not buy Teslas.

And you will even hear people say, I went
in test drove a Model Y and whatever

vehicle they ended up buying.

And they will even say,

I actually liked a lot of the features of
the Tesla, but I was not going to give

money to Elon.

And it's like, well, that's OK, Tesla,
board of directors, you get to contend

with that.

I think from a positivity perspective, I
just came from a week or two ago being at

the Electrify Expo event in Long Beach.

And again, they have eight events
nationwide.

And they've been growing that event
series.

It's a public festival to come and test
drive EVs.

It's the biggest event they've ever had.

And they've had, that's the fourth year
they've now had it in, in California,

Southern California.

And it keeps growing.

So there's, I think there's, to John's
point, there's continued, there's, there's

positive things happening outside the
realm of Tesla.

And I think that, and there's evidence all
around us.

I think the reason why we oftentimes keep
coming back to this is kind of like, John,

we're talking about this a little bit
before we started talking, it's just this

kind of ebb and flow of just kind of like,
yay, that's positive, negative.

And I, and I, we can't change it
overnight, but we don't.

Oftentimes, whatever the media topic is,
we don't have a measured response to those

moments and to the talking points and to
the discussions.

It's oftentimes what's going to get the
clicks and how can we...

John Stewart said years ago at one of the
events he held was at the Rally to Restore

Sanity.

He said, if we amplify everything, we hear
nothing.

And that quote has stuck with me for so
long because we live that seemingly every

day in the ED world.

because everything gets this whaah
amplification and it just does distract us

from again positive news, progress, things
that are going in the right direction.

It's a muddy process we're getting through
but if you really look at the last 10

years and you take a step back and take a
breath, wow what has been accomplished.

It is very impressive, it's not perfect
but we've made a lot of progress and

things just are going in the right
direction.

It's just gonna require more hard work.

Yeah.

And Jace, I would just close with kind of
an exclamation point on something that

John said actually sort of earlier, which
is, you know, we're sort of backloaded for

this year.

And I think there's a little bit of a kind
of the quasi -Osborne effect, right?

In that, you know, we had this rush of new
models a couple of years ago.

And then, you know, we haven't had a lot
of new exciting models.

you know, kind of for mainstream consumers
come to market.

But now this year, you know, like we've
got the, the EV nine, we've got the, the

Volvo, X 30, the 90, we've got the
Chevrolet blazer equinox.

Like we've, we, we actually have, a whole
bunch of new products to get the market

excited again.

I think, God.

yeah.

that vehicle will be in production for, I
don't know, if in three years time it's

still being produced.

I think it might be very shocking.

I just, I think I...

Really?

for us.

That's well, and here's what really hot
take.

I think it still looks better than an EV
nine, but, here it's here to me though.

It's like people who don't care about cars
think it's sweet.

People who are like, yeah.

Yeah.

But I happened to be at a local state park
where I was mountain biking.

And there's a playground there with a
bunch of little kids.

And a Cybertruck drove in.

I mean, there's all kinds of trucks and
SUVs and blah, blah.

Cybertruck drove in park.

It emptied the children's playground.

They went to that thing like moths to a
light bulb.

It was a, and one little boy going around,
my God, it's so beautiful.

And that, to me, was stunning.

I mean, that truck has broken through for
a very young generation.

It's the like, it's like the eighties,
Kuntach for like this generation.

They think it's such a cool, weird,
angular thing.

and then you just talk to like regular car
people and they like that.

It just doesn't look like anything else on
the road.

They're like, yeah, I, I don't know.

I, I, I, yeah.

Right.

That's fair.

Yeah, that's fair.

then they can't because there is a very
very low ceiling to people that are

willing to pay $120 ,000 that truck and
also the performance aspects of it It just

isn't what it was promised to be right 500
miles of range all this stuff They have to

either deliver on those promises for what
that high -priced model is gonna be

because there's only a small amount of
early adopters who want the aesthetic of

it and

to also just kind of turn a blind eye to,
it didn't ship with autopilot.

I mean, like there are some elements about
it they were just damning to me.

Yeah.

that's cause we know it.

We're car people.

We understand that they don't care.

Yeah.

They just, they think it's cool that it
looks wild and it's electric.

They're like, this thing's game over.

But on that, I think this is a good place
as any to end it.

Thank you so much everyone for joining us
today.

for anyone listening, we will have
everyone's contact info and more in the

show notes, but.

With that, John, Loren Matt, thank you so
much for being on again.

Really fun to kind of recap these
predictions and looking forward to

speaking with all of you soon again.

Thanks you guys.

a lot.

Take

Thank you for joining us for this
insightful mid -year check -in on the Grid

Connections podcast.

Special thanks to our returning guests,
John McElroy from Autoline Network, Lauren

McDonald of EV Adoption, and Matt Teske of
Chargeway.

Really appreciate all of them swinging by
to share their expert perspectives on the

always evolving EV landscape.

We hope you found today's discussion as
lightning as we did.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share
it with at least one other person who

would benefit from this information as
well.

And don't forget to leave us a pause
review on our podcast page.

It really does help us reach more
listeners like you and continue to bring

you the latest in EV news and insights.

Until next week, this is the Grid
Connections podcast signing